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A first(?) thread on 2008: McCain,Giuliani & the Republicans

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 10:00 am
Watching Hannity/Colmes last night, I found that they (Luntz particularly) was promoting Thompson and Romney as winners. Luntz used a test group of conservatives (no mention of how they were chosen). Nothing positive to say about Huckabee. Really all pretty weird.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 10:02 am
Quote:
Presidential Race Turns a Negative Page

By CHARLES BABINGTON, Associated Press Writer
4:26 AM PST, November 30, 2007
MANCHESTER, N.H. -- Mitt Romney is the target, abortion is the issue, and the $100,000 ad buy will change the tone of the Iowa and New Hampshire presidential primaries.

This weekend marks the first negative TV advertising in the two early-voting states as the campaign headed into the critical weeks before the first voting, with an independent group's claim that the former Massachusetts governor has flip-flopped -- a sometimes crippling charge in presidential politics. Analysts say similar negative ads are likely against his chief GOP rival, Rudy Giuliani, whose positions on gun control and immigration are markedly different from those he espoused as New York mayor.

The anti-Romney ad campaign, by a Republican group that supports abortion rights, is fairly modest in scope. But it may open the door to bigger ad buys targeting other candidates and topics, several campaign veterans said.

"This will be the beginning of it," said Patrick Griffin, a Manchester-based advertising executive who handled President Bush's 2000 media effort in New Hampshire.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/wire/ats-ap_top13nov30,0,2868981.story?coll=la-ap-topnews-headlines
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 10:35 am
The Giuliani story involving city financing for the affair with his mistress has gained a catchy new label courtesy of Josh Marshall.... "The Shag Fund Story". Pithy. And it's catching on.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 10:44 am
Shag fund... oh my. Laughing
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 10:54 am
Didja see about the taxpayer-funded car and driver for his mistress?

Cycloptichorn
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 11:15 am
Rudy looks to be in some serious trouble now. The 'shag fund' story is pretty perfect for modern media's appetite and the story keeps pumping up and out like a manly erection. The 'character' issues for the fellow are not being helped here. And he's losing his composure, a la Rudy, and it's hard to see that improving. Then there's another significant matter waiting in the wings regarding his business ties to supporters of Osama in the Arab world. Yikes! Even Chris Matthews, who never saw a broad-shouldered bully whom he won't fall in love with, is fretting and getting grumpy as Rudy's rep gets its deserved diminishments.

So, what is the big institutional money of US business going to do? Who to turn to in order to continue the gravy train (where they get to lay the tracks, not weak citizens of course)? Thompson looks to be the second tier choice. It sure as hell won't be McCain or Huckabee. Romney? I can't quite read that relationship or potential relationship.

Another possibility is to encourage some big shock to the electorate. Something of the "DANGER!' sort. Redirect attention, make folks malleable.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 05:25 pm
Sheesh...presumably while humping his mistress judy, he has NYPD personnel walking her dog and scooping up the dogshit. Now there's a responsible leader for ya.
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realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 05:39 pm
Blatham's simile in the second sentence of the post two above made me guffaw.

Earlier today Blatham cited an article from the Associated Press on negative ads. The reporter mentioned "voting" in the "primaries" in Iowa and New Hampshire. We all know that Iowa's event is not a primary but a caucus. There is a big difference.

As I understand it, the Dems and Repubs will have their respective gatherings and at some point hands will be raised in support of the various candidates.

If I lived in Iowa, my hand would go up for Bill Richardson. My hand and probably a small percentage of other people's hands. But my say doesn't end there. The supporters of the various third tier candidates in both parties would be courted to switch our votes and go for someone else the next time hands are raised.

So when the media reports that Hillary-Obama are virtually tied, as are Romney-Huckabee, they are only looking at the first round.

Is my understanding of the process in Iowa correct? I thought I heard it voiced by someone on NPR this morning but can't find it right now.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 07:51 pm
realjohnboy wrote:
So when the media reports that Hillary-Obama are virtually tied, as are Romney-Huckabee, they are only looking at the first round.

Is my understanding of the process in Iowa correct? I thought I heard it voiced by someone on NPR this morning but can't find it right now.

Right. People who in the first round at their district's caucusing support a candidate that gets less than 15% are then asked to switch to another candidate in the next round.

In 2004 this helped Edwards, who got a lot of switch-overs from Kucinich (after having diligently established links with that constituency beforehand). Now, too, Edwards could stand to benefit especially: the Edwards camp was touting a poll this week (or might have been last week) that showed that while Hillary and Obama only had about 20% of second-choice preferences (Obama doing only marginally better than Hillary), Edwards had about 40%.

An earlier poll I remember that asked about second choices, a month or two ago, also had Edwards at the top of second choices, but with Obama narrowly trailing - and again, Hillary in last place, at a sizable distance. (The same does not hold up in New Hampshire, where Hillary leads in second choices, but where that doesnt matter.)

However, it's not that simple. If the race keeps shaping up as it has so far, with Hillary, Obama and Edwards making a three-way race of it and each grabbing a comparable, sizable chunk of the vote, it is unlikely that any of them will fail to reach the 15% mark in many places. So all three of them are likely to go on to the second round of voting in each district's caucus, and the only voters who will be having to switch to another candidate are supporters of the second-tier candidates, mainly Richardson and Biden. So only their second choices are really relevant.

And what is their second preference, specifically? Probably not a question that can be really answered - I remember looking through the data of one poll that asked about second choices, but when it came to breaking them down by candidate (second choices of Obama voters, Edwards voters, etc) they didnt give the numbers for Biden, Kucinich etc voters because the sample sizes were too small. And rightly so; even if there are other polls that do give the data, you'd still be talking about extremely small samples, that would only give the foggiest of indications.

Also, if Iowa voters end up gravitating to the three main candidates en massively enough - and do so evenly spread enough through the state - it may not matter all that much. The more those candidacies suck the air out of the second-tier campaigns, the fewer people we're actually talking about who end up voting for someone who fails to get 15% in their district's caucus and then have to switch.

The "evenly spread" bit, by the way, is why the Obama camp is hoping that the early date of the caucus may actually be a blessing in disguise.

Initially, prospects of the caucus being held on 3 January already was seen as bad news for Obama; the college students among whom he does so well would still be back at home with their family rather than on campus, and would thus be harder to reach / organise / mobilise. But they appear to be working to prevent that: one blogger who signed up for text message updates received campaign updates so consistently that she was left convinced that no Obama sympathiser would be left without info about where and when the caucus was held in his district. Moreover, the campaign realised it could actually be to its strategic advantage.

After all, with its support greatly concentrated among young and urban voters, there was a looming threat that Obama's vote might remain under 15% in rural districts, and he would lose delegates accordingly. But now all those Obama-loving students will still be at home with their families - spread all across the state.
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realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 08:51 pm
You are awesome, nimh-dude.
I can appreciate that Hillary/Obama/Edwards may together garner such an overwhelmingly portion of the vote that the others' supporters are not worth quibbling about. We shall see.
But how about on the Repub side? I see Romney and Huckabee doing well, and McCain (who I wrote off, prematurely I guess, a few months ago), doing okay. Where do the other sub-15% Iowans go? Rudy probably won't do well, but wasn't expected to.
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2007 08:47 am
blatham wrote:
Then there's another significant matter waiting in the wings regarding his business ties to supporters of Osama in the Arab world. Yikes!


Quote:
Giuliani's Terror Shame, Our Blog Shame

So we've been feeling guilty all week because we missed picking up on Wayne Barrett's super-duper Village Voice report about Rudy Giuliani's ties to Qatar, which in turn tie him to terrorist Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. It was a big story that we even read but then got caught up in other things and didn't end up covering it. And then today, Joe Conason at Salon.com totally called us out on it.

Occasionally, as in the case of Rudolph Giuliani during this past week, the sudden appearance of not one but two juicy investigations overwhelms the system's capacity to absorb and regurgitate. But when the nation's news executives decided which of two highly embarrassing Giuliani stories to feature, nearly all of them made the wrong choice. While they lavished enormous attention upon a Politico story dealing with adultery and bureaucracy, they should be devoting at least as much time to yet another in the long series of Wayne Barrett scoops in the Village Voice, because this one involves business and terrorism.

Conason is right. Barrett is a little obsessed and maybe does push pins into dolls of Giuliani every night, but his reporting is accurate, smart, and in this case, important. Conason even comes up with ten questions that reporters can ask Giuliani about his Qatar connections so they don't have to read the whole Voice story. So readers, go read the article. And Conason, thanks for giving us a bloggily self-referential way to assuage our own guilt.

Giuliani's Terrorist Ties [Salon]
Rudy's Ties to a Terror Sheikh [VV]


New York Mag Daily Intelligencer (worth keeping an eye on)

~~~
~~~


Direct link to Wayne Barrett's article (5 pages online)

Quote:


<snip>

Quote:



Once again, I'll recommend checking Barrett's earlier work on Mr. Giuliani out of the library.

He's got a bias, but he does his research (, and as a former Giuliani-insider, he still has access to good sources).
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2007 09:14 am
This is Norquist's organization going after Huckabee. In the perspective of these boys, Huckabee like McCain, will be a loose cannon as he is motivated in directions other than evisceration of New Deal policies and deregulation ideology.

Quote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/02/us/politics/02huckabee.html?hp

But these guys don't like Thompson either...
Quote:
Reform Group: Thompson Would Hike Taxes

Thursday, November 8, 2007 3:05 PM

By: Ronald Kessler When it comes to taxes, Fred Thomson is the "worst" of the Republican presidential candidates, Grover Norquist, president of Americans for Tax Reform, tells Newsmax.


GOP hopefuls Mitt Romney and Rudy Giuliani have both promised not to raise taxes - Romney even signing an ATR pledge not to raise the marginal tax rate. Thompson, on the other hand, has not signed the pledge and has said high-income Medicare beneficiaries may have to pay more for coverage.

"Thompson didn't sign the pledge as a senator, and he has no track record of being any good on taxes," Norquist says. "He won't say no to tax hikes, and in this town, that means you will say yes to tax increases.


"You can spend the rest of your life raising taxes and you can't fix the entitlement problem," he says. "We've got to say taxes are off the table, and now how do you fix it? With education, we can offer school choice. With social security, it's personal savings accounts. With Medicare, it's health savings accounts."


A lynchpin of the conservative movement, Norquist runs an off-the-record, invitation-only meeting every Wednesday at ATR's office in Washington. There, roughly 150 representatives of the White House, Republican congressional leadership, and conservative interest groups gather to exchange the latest skinny on politics, strategy, and issues.
http://www.newsmax.com/kessler/Kessler_Thompson_taxes/2007/11/08/47885.html

addendum...
I've been scouting around trying to get some notion of Norquist's present level of power in the party. It appears to be diminishing, a function, I think, of the broad disarray in the party.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2007 09:24 am
My favorite Fox Headline of the week...
Quote:
Study: Canadian Beer Drinkers Threaten Planet
Friday, November 30, 2007


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313844,00.html
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2007 11:27 am
Another jolt of perspective on the radical extremism of the modern conservative movement (not to mention the mythical Reagan-Beast)

Quote:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/22392.html
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2007 12:53 pm
Sounds almost like Ahnold.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2007 07:45 pm
Finger on the dial

Some pollsters and researchers sometimes use a kind of live-response tracking to test what effect a debate or broadcast has on a voter. They provide a focus group, or a studio audience, with a dial on which they can express their approval or disapproval to whatever the person on the stage / debate / broadcast is saying.

I remember that in '04 (I think it was), you could watch one of the last presidential debates on C-Span on a separate channel that allowed you to watch not just the debate, but also a graph that showed how a cross-section of the audience was responding to what was said. Old Europe watched it, I think.

In Holland, there was an election debate in 2003 on a commercial broadcaster, where each party leader was grilled for x minutes by a questioner, while the audience was fitted out with these dials, and on the screen behind him the graph showed how what he was saying was being received, real-time. (I dont remember whether the politician could see it himself too.)

Anyway, during the last Republican primary debate, there were also voters at the ready, "finger on the dial", in at least two different places.

The nasty party

Frank Luntz had gathered a focus group of 30 undecided--or sort of undecided--Republicans. Joe Klein was there as well and recorded some observations on the Time blog.

Huckabee and to a lesser extent McCain received plaudits for their performance from the pundits and mainstream observers. But Klein's observations suggest that the very things that were praised might not at all have gone down well among conservative voters:

Quote:
In the next segment--the debate between Romney and Mike Huckabee over Huckabee's college scholarships for the deserving children of illegal immigrants--I noticed something really distressing: When Huckabee said, "After all, these are children of God," the dials plummeted. And that happened time and again through the evening: Any time any candidate proposed doing anything nice for anyone poor, the dials plummeted (30s). [..]

But there was worse to come: When John McCain started talking about torture--specifically, about waterboarding--the dials plummeted again. Lower even than for the illegal Children of God. Down to the low 20s, which, given the natural averaging of a focus group, is about as low as you can go. Afterwards, Luntz asked the group why they seemed to be in favor of torture. "I don't have any problem pouring water on the face of a man who killed 3000 Americans on 9/11," said John Shevlin, a retired federal law enforcement officer. The group applauded, appallingly.

I posted a longer excerpt on an old thread of mine called, O oh oh, what a jolly party the Republican Party is...

Media curves

Media Curves is a "service of HCD research" that apparently specialises in exactly this kind of opinion research, and they did such a study on the Republican debate as well. They gathered 637 self-reported Republicans, Democrats and independents, and showed them segments from the debate - a couple of segments each of McCain, Giuliani, Romney and Huckabee responding to questions or making points.

I.e.: the sample of participants here was much bigger than in Luntz group; but they only got to see some selected segments of the debate - barely over 5 minutes in all, in fact. You can view the segments that were showed and how the viewers responded real-time.

FWIW, this study demonstrated that Mike Huckabee has significant growth potential - not just among Republican voters, but across the aisle too. All participants were asked beforehand whom they would vote for in the primaries if they were asked to vote for a Republican. They were then asked the same question again after they saw the segments. The press release summarises how opinions changed:

  • Of the Republicans, prior to viewing the debate segments, 30% said Giuliani, with Romney and Huckabee trailing at 11-12% and McCain at 7%. (This means the group roughly reflected the current poll standings for Giuliani, Romney and Huckabee, while McCain supporters were underrepresented.)

    Afterwards, the numbers for Giuliani, Romney and McCain had changed barely - but many undecideds went to Huckabee, whose support doubled from 11% to 21%.

  • Of the Independents, prior to the viewing, 26% said Giuliani, 12% McCain, and just 6-7% Romney and Huckabee. Afterwards, 28% said Giuliani, 12-13% said McCain or Huckabee, and 7% Romney.

  • Of the Democrats, prior to the viewing, 26% said Giuliani, 16% McCain, and just 5-7% Romney and Huckabee. Afterwards, 27% said Giuliani, 15% each said McCain or Huckabee, and 6% Romney.
In short, among Republicans, Huckabee instantly became the main challenger to Giuliani's dominance. Among both Independents and Republicans, Huckabee jumped from a shared third place with Romney to a shared second place with McCain.

And in a way this is only logical: while Giuliani and McCain are already well-known people who are unlikely to suddenly win over a great many new supporters, Huckabee is still a newcomer, whom only a small share of voters have really taken the effort to listen to yet.

The same research used a different way to poll people's opinions as well. Both before and after viewing the segments, Republicans, independents and Democrats alike were asked to evaluate each of the four candidates on a scale from 100 (complete support) to -100 (no support at all). The results are listed here, and shown below in this graph of mine:


http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3183/repubdebatemediacurvesyz5.png
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2007 08:09 pm
nimh wrote:
Now, too, Edwards could stand to benefit especially: the Edwards camp was touting a poll this week (or might have been last week) that showed that while Hillary and Obama only had about 20% of second-choice preferences (Obama doing only marginally better than Hillary), Edwards had about 40%.

Found this one back - didnt get the numbers quite right.

Quote:
In terms of second-choices in Iowa, John Edwards tops the list of candidates. He is the second choice for 28% of likely caucus participants. Obama is the second choice for 18%, Clinton for 16%, and Richardson for 15%. Second choice preferences are especially important given the nature of the Iowa caucuses. In a particular caucus setting, if a candidate receives less than 15% of the vote, their supporters will be re-allocated to other candidates.

(Rasmussen, 29 November)
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2007 08:36 pm
Gotta give this to the Republicans though: they're where the action is, so far:

Quote:
CNN/YouTube Debate Breaks Ratings Record

CNN's Republican YouTube debate last night attracted 4.4 million viewers, making it the most-watched debate of this presidential primary season and breaking all records for any primary debate on cable television in cable history.

CNN broke its own record for this season, which it set Nov. 15 with its Democratic debate in Las Vegas. That drew 4.036 million viewers.

The record ratings reflect an increasing interest in the election as the Iowa caucuses approach on Jan. 3. Also, the Republicans had not shared a debate stage in more than a month, and the contest has been intensifying as the candidates have started to throw personal jabs at each other. [..]
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2007 05:06 pm
Huckabee is polling well nationwide now and today Norquist says, Maybe Huckabee is ok after all...
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/279824.aspx
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Kitten with a Whip
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2007 09:33 pm
Can you imagine a guy named Huckabee versus a guy named Obama?
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