Is this board anti-muslim?

ENDYMION wrote:

snood wrote:
How can you leave God out of a discussion about Islam? Islam MEANS submission to the will of God.

ok. but I'm asking to talk to someone about islamic art, culture, history (which obviously involves the religion of Islam) without debate about God.

I mean, I'd like to talk about going to a mosque without talking about why.
Because I'm honestly interested in things like the painting from Manafi al-Hayawan (The usefulness of Animals) by Abu Sa'id Ubaud Allah ibn Bakhtishu from Iran
or the music of Mukhtar And Al-Saadi (Iraq)

I believe that the most beautiful arcitecture stands in the middle east and I'd also like some recipe ideas as I'm into spicy, north African food.

There. No mention of God.

Well, we could certainly try, but it wouldn't get very far, because you're making a very common mistake.

I'm American, I'm white, I've never left this country, and middle eastern art and architecture is not my area of expertise.

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I think Oreo is not offensive, but sort of dumb.

Stepanfetchit--I've only heard a black guy use to denigrate black Republicans, so I don't like it.

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Perplexed--

Atre you still considering yourself Muslim? I remember that you were thinking about it.

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Stepin Fetchit was the stage name of American comedian and film actor Lincoln Theodore Monroe Andrew Perry (b. (May 30, 1902, Key West, Florida; d. November 19, 1985). Though his typical film persona and stage name have long been synonymous with the discredited stereotype of the servile, shiftless, low-intelligence black man in early 20th Century American film, Fetchit parlayed it into a successful film career that actually opened doors for black actors, even if it was the polar opposite of his actual self.

http://www.answers.com/topic/stepin-fetchit

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Yeah. I should have said--I know what it is supposed to imbue...I've just only head a black guy use it, here actually. Never head it used in anger or insult anywhere else.

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In due course, the Fetchit image came to be seen as degrading enough that Perry's films rarely get a screening now. Nor have they seen widespread video release. And, on the rare occasions the films are shown, most of his segments are deleted.

But film historians across racial lines have come to see that Perry was in fact a gifted comic, and it happened that he was the first black actor to become a millionaire.

Unfortunately, Perry was a far better actor than he was a manager of his own money, and he was forced to declare bankruptcy in 1947.

Perry converted to Islam in the 1960s........

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Lash wrote:

Perplexed--

Atre you still considering yourself Muslim? I remember that you were thinking about it.

You mean now as opposed to YESTERDAY? Yes, I am still firmly within the fold of Islam (minus the not-so occasional slip of course)

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Perplexed-- I just saw that you were considering Buddhism (a great religion!!), and so I wondered if you may have decided to explore.

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Perplexed,

Did you know Stepin Fetchit converted to Islam?

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Lash wrote:

Perplexed-- I just saw that you were considering Buddhism (a great religion!!), and so I wondered if you may have decided to explore.

I looked into Buddhism years ago, I think it's a beautiful religion, not so certain t's for me.

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Perplexed wrote:

Lash wrote:
Perplexed-- I just saw that you were considering Buddhism (a great religion!!), and so I wondered if you may have decided to explore.
I looked into Buddhism years ago, I think it's a beautiful religion, not so certain t's for me.

I think I may start incorporating elements of it into my life. It doesn't conflict with most other religions. I'm not sure it has to be considered a religion. Maybe a lifestyle...?

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Perplexed wrote:

I can't speak for every muslim, but, while I will try to use the term non-muslim, if I do slip and say kaffir or kuffar, please remember that the term is not originally intended to be an insulting one.

I was looking for something else and ran across "kafir" in this list.

Najis Things (84 - 148)
* Urine and Faeces
* Semen
* Dead Body
* Blood
* Dogs and Pigs
* Kafir
* Alcoholic Liquor
* Beer (Fuqa')
* Sweat of an Animal Who Persistently Eats Najasat
* Ways of Proving Najasat
* How a Pak Thing Becomes Najis
* Rules Regarding Najasaat

http://al-islam.org/laws/

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mesquite wrote:

Perplexed wrote:
I can't speak for every muslim, but, while I will try to use the term non-muslim, if I do slip and say kaffir or kuffar, please remember that the term is not originally intended to be an insulting one.

I was looking for something else and ran across "kafir" in this list.

Najis Things (84 - 148)
* Urine and Faeces
* Semen
* Dead Body
* Blood
* Dogs and Pigs
* Kafir
* Alcoholic Liquor
* Beer (Fuqa')
* Sweat of an Animal Who Persistently Eats Najasat
* Ways of Proving Najasat
* How a Pak Thing Becomes Najis
* Rules Regarding Najasaat

http://al-islam.org/laws/

I didn't write that, it's not my belief.

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Well I can't blame you there. That's one bodacious list of rules which once mastered would qualify one for full blown OCD.

Are you just into some form of Islam lite?

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Islam lite, is that like near beer?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_beer

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mesquite wrote:

Well I can't blame you there. That's one bodacious list of rules which once mastered would qualify one for full blown OCD.

Are you just into some form of Islam lite?

Actually kaffir is the only part of that list I disagree with. Actually, I'm not sure what najis means, I assume that it's a synonym for haraam, which all the things listed (except kaffir) definitely are.

Also, just because someone isn't wahhabi (a relatively conservative "fundamentalist" sect from Saudi Arabia) doesn't mean they're "Islam light" or some stupid thing like that. There's a whole spectrum of belief within Islam, which has been accepted throughout it's history, as Islam stresses Orthopraxy (practice) over orthodoxy (belief)

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Perplexed wrote:

Actually, I'm not sure what najis means, I assume that it's a synonym for haraam, which all the things listed (except kaffir) definitely are.

I had no idea Islam was a pick and mix religion. Its not for you to determine what is harram and what not. You are told, and you if you are muslim, obey. They whole idea is that it saves you using your brain.

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Lash wrote:

Are coon, honkey, spic, camel jockey, penguin, towelhead, redneck, et AL equally insulting?

Because your analogy would seem to require that.

Well, I dont know about "penguin", since I've heard little about the term being used in the course of the oppression or even persecution of nuns or museum wardens lately. And that I think is an important part of the point. Muslims, like pretty much most religious, ethnic or racial groups, have faced collective persecution and systematic discrimination. That makes labelling them with insultive epithets on the basis of race, religion or ethnicity as a par of course a problem.

Moreover, I seem to remember you do resent other people's use of the word "redneck", actually. So why would one not resent your use of the word "towelhead"?

Lash wrote:

Point #2-- I think "towelhead" is akin to the insult: Your Arab mother wears army boots.

It's cute. It's almost endearing.

Says you. I think it'd be up to the group insulted like that to decide just how "cute" and "endearing" the insult in question is. Seems as reasonable a criterion as any. If many people tell you that a certain term offends / hurts them, then that's it, in my book.

Ie, *I* can say, "oh but I only mean 'coon' in, you know, an endearing, cute way", but I dont think any black person would buy it. In fact, you wouldnt either, I'm guessing.

So, to just get right down to the point, where do you draw the line between acceptable ("towelhead") and unacceptable ("coon"?). Cause at the moment it just sounds like you're using double standards - when it's about Muslims you can say the kind of things that you wouldnt say about, say, blacks - or that you dont even appreciate people saying about whites ("redneck"?).

If you say, well I would never say "nigger", but "towelhead" is OK, then its not the "PC" concept of avoiding words that insult or hurt people itself that you take issue with, but just where I draw the line in this case. Which begs the question where you draw it.

Lash wrote:

Stop running around with a PC handbook in your back pocket.

I refuse to let some cabal in some penthouse misappropriate a perfectly cute insult.

Can anyone just tell you--"Hey, that's on the offensive list" and you just BUY it? Because, I'm going to make a new list, if you're such an easy mark.

Well, if you consider your crusade against PCers a valid excuse for knowingly using words that you already know do actually insult/offend/hurt large groups of people, for no reason other than that you consider it a right, then go right ahead I guess (just dont whine if people complain about it <shrugs>).

Perhaps the guy posting earlier (forgot who) who said that it says more about the user than about the group described is right.

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

I had no idea Islam was a pick and mix religion. Its not for you to determine what is harram and what not. You are told, and you if you are muslim, obey.

What nonsense. Thats what a fundamentalist Wahhabite would say, yes, but luckily, as Perplexed says, there's as many kinds of Islam as there are kinds of Christianity, and the character or nature of how it's experienced and practiced has varied and still varies greatly from place to place.

Eg, an anthropological study of Turks in Bulgaria showed that, sharing their villages with Orthodox Bulgarians in about equal numbers, the two groups regularly did indeed mix and match. Muslim Turks went to Christian shrines to pray for a cure to their disease, while Christian Bulgarians went to the tombs of Muslim holy men in the hope of receiving some blessing. At Christmas, one Muslim man said, he ate pork and drank wine, the week after he'd be a pious Muslim again. In one region, when there was a religious feast for eithe group, the other group voluntarily served as servants and helpers, and had done so for centuries.

The point here is that both groups were firmly convinced that they were good Muslims/Christians, respectively, and would go to heaven for their life as such. Now some import Wahhabite imam would disagree, of course, and the striking thing here is that you side with that hypothetical Wahhabite imam. But who are you to judge what is "real" Islam and what is just a fake pretension of it? And why should you use the most dogmatic and literalist of standards from among the Muslim range to define that point?

You denounce militant Muslims for being dogmatic to the point of terrorism, but when it turns out plenty of Muslims are in fact hardly as dogmatic and literalist in their belief as all that, you ridicule them. Something odd about that.

Only explanation I can come up with from the top of my head is that declaring an an entire religion the enemy only works if, whenever you actually meet a less than completely unreasonable appearance of said religion, you redefine it as "not real" so the notion of the pure enemy camp can remain preserved. Like saying: "all hippies are unreasonable", then, when you meet a reasonable hippie, "well, but then you're not a real hippie". That would do the trick, yes, but says more about the abstract concept you're going on than about real hippies.

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nimh wrote:

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
I had no idea Islam was a pick and mix religion. Its not for you to determine what is harram and what not. You are told, and you if you are muslim, obey.

What nonsense. Thats what a fundamentalist Wahhabite would say, yes, but luckily, as Perplexed says, there's as many kinds of Islam as there are kinds of Christianity, and the character or nature of how it's experienced and practiced has varied and still varies greatly from place to place.

Eg, an anthropological study of Turks in Bulgaria showed that, sharing their villages with Orthodox Bulgarians in about equal numbers, the two groups regularly did indeed mix and match. Muslim Turks went to Christian shrines to pray for a cure to their disease, while Christian Bulgarians went to the tombs of Muslim holy men in the hope of receiving some blessing. At Christmas, one Muslim man said, he ate pork and drank wine, the week after he'd be a pious Muslim again. In one region, when there was a religious feast for eithe group, the other group voluntarily served as servants and helpers, and had done so for centuries.

The point here is that both groups were firmly convinced that they were good Muslims/Christians, respectively, and would go to heaven for their life as such. Now some import Wahhabite imam would disagree, of course, and the striking thing here is that you side with that hypothetical Wahhabite imam. But who are you to judge what is "real" Islam and what is just a fake pretension of it? And why should you use the most dogmatic and literalist of standards from among the Muslim range to define that point?

You denounce militant Muslims for being dogmatic to the point of terrorism, but when it turns out plenty of Muslims are in fact hardly as dogmatic and literalist in their belief as all that, you ridicule them. Something odd about that.

Only explanation I can come up with from the top of my head is that declaring an an entire religion the enemy only works if, whenever you actually meet a less than completely unreasonable appearance of said religion, you redefine it as "not real" so the notion of the pure enemy camp can remain preserved. Like saying: "all hippies are unreasonable", then, when you meet a reasonable hippie, "well, but then you're not a real hippie". That would do the trick, yes, but says more about the abstract concept you're going on than about real hippies.

Well if Muslims drink wine eat pork go to Christian shrines and generally dont behave like muslims, that fine with me. In fact if they were all to drink a bit more, saw the funny side to cartoons and generally concentrated on this life instead of the next, the world would be a better place imo. Perplexed said he did not accept that kaffirs were haraam. But perplexed is not an ayatollah.

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Is this board anti-muslim?

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