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Why the Muslims are so angry

 
 
Deler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Feb, 2006 03:34 pm
Physgrad; your response is exactly as my initial feelings towards the situation were and, as I see it, sums up the general portrayal in the media.

physgrad wrote:
So someone publishes a Cartoon which breaks no laws and thousands of muslims over the world breakout in protests and expect the rest of the world to unilaterally condemn the action, without considering the fact that to many other countries freedom of expression is an inalienable right.

However, when muslim suicide bombers blow up innocent people in Israel, or even buildings in NYC, the so called moderate muslim condemnation of such acts is always followed by some kind of justification for the action.

Where is the unilateral muslim condemnation of killing of innocents? If moderate muslims really do believe that killing innocents goes against Islam, where were the spontaneous protests when the Twin Towers fell? Logically, looking at the reaction of the muslim world one could conclude that they hold Cartoons to be greater blasphemy than murder.


I find myself wondering the same thing, does your average muslim condemn these actions? I would say so but we have no way of knowing. The general muslim nation has no voice in the western world, the ones with the words are the ones with C4 and they don't speak for muslims as a whole. These are a very represed people from our vantage point and I can understand how they become so upset to the image of muhamed with a bomb in his turban, not just the cartoon it's self but what it stands for, the fanatics speaking for the general public. Who is to blame here? Can you blame the western media for reporting on what is actually happening?

"Prophet Muhammad is offended every day when somebody blows themselves up in a marketplace in Iraq. He's offended whenever somebody is beheaded. Prophet Muhammad would have opposed the burning of these embassies, or calls to kill Danes or other people," Magid said. "You can't be untouchable and then call other people infidel."

Someone needs to say this for these people because until today I haven't heard such a view point, simply a hint here or there that muslims quietly disagree with such acts. Is it our right/duty as americans to give them this voice even if it means changeing their way of life?

Violence isn't the correct reaction, there is no way to respond to violence and this leaves the western world with no proper course of action.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Feb, 2006 03:43 pm
fleming rose said :
"By making fun in this way, we've not only created Muslims [i.e. extremists], we've also created Danes," he said. "Humour, even offensive humour, brings people together. Because by making fun of people we're also including them in our society. It's not always easy for those concerned, but that's the price they've got to pay."

i have to admit, that it is a pretty wide sweeping statement. i also understand that many muslims find that type of 'fun' offensive.
but is it not also true that we often make fun of others frailties ?
when we came from germany to canada 50 years ago, the word 'kraut' to describe germans was stiil in use - i haven't heard it in many years now.
some german cottagers actually described their lake as 'kraut lake' , and everyone seemed to accept with a laugh. canadians make jokes about newfies, quebecers (pea-soupers), toronto (hogtown) ... and plenty more ribbing goes on.
of course, in this case it was an insult to the prophet and that was stupid and wrong.
but the point being made , that once you can make fun of someone - without being offensive - and that's a fine, a very fine line ! - we become a more inclusive society , has some validity imo.
i could cite quite a few articles from toronto newspapers in which some muslims are quoted as laughing at this storm-in-a-teacup. one group of 'progressive' muslims had a 'coffee and danish pastry' get-together ; others of course were quite angered at the danish stupidity.
let me repeat what i said at the beginning :
i think what the danish editor did was stupid and hurtful to many muslims, and they have a right to protest.
but i also think that once you can laugh when someone is trying to make fun of you, you are turning this around and make the other party (the attacker) look foolish. hbg
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Feb, 2006 04:08 pm
I'm not so sure the historical Muhammed would condem the riots and embassy burnings at all. He used the same tactics himself in taking Medina and Mecca. The subsequent spread of Islam ("submission") across the Middle East and North Africa, then largely Christian, was accomplished more or less in the same way by the resurgent Arabs and their then new. combined relifgious and political doctrine.

In the ordinary course of events the cartoons were hardly extreme. Such characterizations and obvious exaggerations are commonly directed at government, cultural and even religious figures in the West and other parts of the world as well. The disproportionate sensitivity of Moslems of all dispositions across the Middle East is very likely the cumulative result of centuries of European exploitation, colonialism, and contemptuous treatment of their culture. The struggle with the State of Israel over the past 55 years; the intermediate position of the Moslem world during the Cold War; and other aspects of the current era have all done their part to sustain and add to this growing surge of resentment and anger in the Moslem world towards the West.

It has become commonplace to cite the U.S. support of Israel and U.S. petroleum interests as the major causes of this disquiet. However that is illusion. Indeed both phenomena are themselves consequences of the basic causes noted above.

The fact is we face the likelihood of a generation long confrontation and struggle with the Islamic world, which has been building for a very long time. It is fed by the backwardness of the economic and political structures of Moslem countries, and the religious (and cultural) fanaticism to which the people, having no modern alternative before them, increasingly turn. The U. S. intervention in iraq should be considered in this light. Despite all the difficulties (some not sufficiently anticipated) we now face there, we have a good chance of establishing a relatively modern, tolerant, and democratic state in the midst of this ferment. This may well be the best thing the Western World now has going for it in this long-term struggle.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Feb, 2006 05:12 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
It has become commonplace to cite the U.S. support of Israel and U.S. petroleum interests as the major causes of this disquiet. However that is illusion. Indeed both phenomena are themselves consequences of the basic causes noted above.

The fact is we face the likelihood of a generation long confrontation and struggle with the Islamic world, which has been building for a very long time. It is fed by the backwardness of the economic and political structures of Moslem countries, and the religious (and cultural) fanaticism to which the people, having no modern alternative before them, increasingly turn. The U. S. intervention in iraq should be considered in this light.
Assuming your perspectives are fully objective, I must ask; if there was no oil in the Middle East and never was, would the US give an damn? I have my serous doubts. Why?

Because there are many other parts of the world where similar argument can be made vis-à-vis "backwardness of the economic and political structures" and "religious (and cultural) fanaticism" but yet the US has no substantial input.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Feb, 2006 05:26 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Despite all the difficulties (some not sufficiently anticipated) we now face there, we have a good chance of establishing a relatively modern, tolerant, and democratic state in the midst of this ferment. This may well be the best thing the Western World now has going for it in this long-term struggle.
You would need the equivalent of the Potsdam Declaration, good luck!

The Potsdam Declaration, demanded Japan's unconditional surrender. This declaration also defined the major goals of the postsurrender Allied occupation: "The Japanese government shall remove all obstacles to the revival and strengthening of democratic tendencies among the Japanese people. Freedom of speech, of religion, and of thought, as well as respect for the fundamental human rights shall be established" (Section 10). In addition, the document stated: "The occupying forces of the Allies shall be withdrawn from Japan as soon as these objectives have been accomplished and there has been established in accordance with the freely expressed will of the Japanese people a peacefully inclined and responsible government" (Section 12). The Allies sought not merely punishment or reparations from a militaristic foe, but fundamental changes in the nature of its political system. In the words of political scientist Robert E. Ward: "The occupation was perhaps the single most exhaustively planned operation of massive and externally directed political change in world history."
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Feb, 2006 05:37 pm
I didn't say that petroleum (and Israel) are not important factors in our policy -- only that they are consequences or continuations (in the case of oil) of the earlier trends I noted.

If you consider political and economic trends you will note that South and East Asia are improving very rapidly; The Moslem World (except for Malaysia and Indonesia) and Latin America are stagnant in both categories; and Africa is getting worse.

I believe that our "input" as you call it has more to do with our security concerns than the direct political and economic betterment of the regions themselves. This is for both selfish and practical reasons.

It has proven very difficult to meaningfully improve either the political or economic condition of a "developing country" through government-to-government assistance. Most of such aid in Africa ended up in the Swiss bank accounts of the government kleptocracy it bred. The first generation of largely European-trained African political leaders mnisapplied the socialist welfare economic policies then fashonable in Europe, wasting much time and great wealth. The evidence suggests that capitalism, access to international markets, and self-reliance are the only reliable path to success.

Despite this there have been some examples of successful foreign "input". The hybrid rice seeds introduced into Asia over twenty five years ago bred a relatively silent revolution in ending the mass starvation that preceeded it. (Oddly Europeans are fiercely resisting the introduction of modern GM hybrids in Africa where they are desperately needed.) The U.S. funding of AIDS therapies in Africa is already showing results in rteducing the worst human and social ravages of that disease there. Beyond that government-to-government aid seems to chiefly benefit the international bureaucrats who feed off it and the recipient government officials who steal it.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Feb, 2006 07:21 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
I didn't say that petroleum (and Israel) are not important factors in our policy -- only that they are consequences or continuations (in the case of oil) of the earlier trends I noted.

Understood now.
georgeob1 wrote:
If you consider political and economic trends you will note that South and East Asia are improving very rapidly; The Moslem World (except for Malaysia and Indonesia) and Latin America are stagnant in both categories; and Africa is getting worse.
OK
georgeob1 wrote:
I believe that our "input" as you call it has more to do with our security concerns than the direct political and economic betterment of the regions themselves. This is for both selfish and practical reasons.
Valid, altruism is extinct. Well close enough anyhow
georgeob1 wrote:
It has proven very difficult to meaningfully improve either the political or economic condition of a "developing country" through government-to-government assistance. Most of such aid in Africa ended up in the Swiss bank accounts of the government kleptocracy it bred. The first generation of largely European-trained African political leaders mnisapplied the socialist welfare economic policies then fashonable in Europe, wasting much time and great wealth. The evidence suggests that capitalism, access to international markets, and self-reliance are the only reliable path to success.
No argument from me.
georgeob1 wrote:
Despite this there have been some examples of successful foreign "input". The hybrid rice seeds introduced into Asia over twenty five years ago bred a relatively silent revolution in ending the mass starvation that preceeded it. (Oddly Europeans are fiercely resisting the introduction of modern GM hybrids in Africa where they are desperately needed.) The U.S. funding of AIDS therapies in Africa is already showing results in rteducing the worst human and social ravages of that disease there. Beyond that government-to-government aid seems to chiefly benefit the international bureaucrats who feed off it and the recipient government officials who steal it.
Very interesting and sounds par for the course.........quit stealing my word de jour "input" Smile
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