3
   

Bush supporters' aftermath thread II

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 03:20 pm
Advocate wrote:
Fox, I share his gloomy outlook. We seem to be going downhill very quickly on almost everything.

BTW, I defy you to show any error in his statements. He is a brilliant economist who knows what he is talking about.


It isn't what he ays that is necessarily wrong, but it is that he doesn't put it within any context other than all is wrong which I think distorts the reality and promotes wrong conclusions.

I am sorry that you share his gloomy outlook. I can't imagine looking at the world through his eyes or the eyes of those who share his outlook. It must be horrible. I think I'll stick with Sowell, Williams, and other brilliant economists who haven't let me down over the years and who are capable of seeing the good as well as the bad.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 03:58 pm
Unless we recognize the problems we are facing, nothing can be done about them.

We have massive, unrelenting deficits, which I think will increase. This is especially so with Bush's plans to further cut the taxes of the wealthy. Our imbalance of trade is immense, and we are outsourcing jobs like crazy. Our plutocracy is getting worse. It was recently reported that even college graduates may not prosper in the future. The lower class is sinking out of sight, and the middle class is drifting downward.

We are in unwinnable wars that are draining our coffers, not to mention decimating our youth. I think that crime is increasing, which is probably due to the dearth of decent jobs.

Please tell me why you are optimistic.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 04:04 pm
Advocate wrote:
Unless we recognize the problems we are facing, nothing can be done about them.

We have massive, unrelenting deficits, which I think will increase. This is especially so with Bush's plans to further cut the taxes of the wealthy. Our imbalance of trade is immense, and we are outsourcing jobs like crazy. Our plutocracy is getting worse. It was recently reported that even college graduates may not prosper in the future. The lower class is sinking out of sight, and the middle class is drifting downward.

We are in unwinnable wars that are draining our coffers, not to mention decimating our youth. I think that crime is increasing, which is probably due to the dearth of decent jobs.

Please tell me why you are optimistic.


THere you go again with the tax cuts.

If you and the dems care so much about taxes,why hasnt anyone on your side suggested eliminating ALL taxes on those making minimum wage?
That includes SS tax,federal,state,local income taxes,medicare,and any other tax they might have to pay?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 04:07 pm
Advocate wrote:
Unless we recognize the problems we are facing, nothing can be done about them.

We have massive, unrelenting deficits, which I think will increase. This is especially so with Bush's plans to further cut the taxes of the wealthy. Our imbalance of trade is immense, and we are outsourcing jobs like crazy. Our plutocracy is getting worse. It was recently reported that even college graduates may not prosper in the future. The lower class is sinking out of sight, and the middle class is drifting downward.

We are in unwinnable wars that are draining our coffers, not to mention decimating our youth. I think that crime is increasing, which is probably due to the dearth of decent jobs.

Please tell me why you are optimistic.


But the thing is nobody is necessarily ignoring the problems. This country has always had problems, sometimes enormous seemingly hopeless problems. But somehow we always managed to come up with solutions when we absolutely had to or sometimes when we just decided we wanted to. And I have no reason to believe that has changed. We have a choice. We can believe a problem is the sky falling or we can see it as an opportunity to find a solution and, in the process, become even better than we were. I strongly support the latter course of action.

I think back to a line in the movie "Apollo 13". Tom Hank's character is looking up at the moon and marveling that Neil Armstrong walked on it that very night. "It isn't a miracle", he said. "We just decided to go."

I've lived long enough to see America come through so many of those presumably unsolvable problems. And those weren't miracles either. We just decided to do it.

When a large number of Americans believe things are bad, things are going to be bad. And when Americans believe things are better or can be better, somehow things are better and get better. Optimism is almost always going to be more successful than pessimism. (That's the gospel according to Foxfyre.)
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 04:15 pm
I'm optimistic and I'm almost always successful.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 04:16 pm
Lola wrote:
I'm optimistic and I'm almost always successful.


There. See? Plus you have the sexiest legs on A2K Smile
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 04:18 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Lola wrote:
I'm optimistic and I'm almost always successful.


There. See? Plus you have the sexiest legs on A2K Smile


Only because you havent seen mine yet...LOL
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 04:20 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Lola wrote:
I'm optimistic and I'm almost always successful.


There. See? Plus you have the sexiest legs on A2K Smile


Only because you havent seen mine yet...LOL


Well, I'll reserve judgment then MM, as I'm sure yours are very nice too.

I do think if people put just half the passion and energy into solving a problem as they do fretting, whining, complaining, and moaning that they've got one, we would find solutions a whole lot faster and with a lot less grief.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 04:26 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Lola wrote:
I'm optimistic and I'm almost always successful.


There. See? Plus you have the sexiest legs on A2K Smile


Only because you havent seen mine yet...LOL


Spare me MysteryMan, give it up, you can't compete with me, not in optimisn or legs......

Thanks Foxfire for the compliment, but actually I think these avatar legs are a little skinny....long yes, but skinny still.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 04:29 pm
Lola wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Lola wrote:
I'm optimistic and I'm almost always successful.


There. See? Plus you have the sexiest legs on A2K Smile


Only because you havent seen mine yet...LOL


Spare me MysteryMan, give it up, you can't compete with me, not in optimisn or legs......

Thanks Foxfire for the compliment, but actually I think these avatar legs are a little skinny....long yes, but skinny still.


Optimism,I might be able to compete.

Legs,there is no way I can compete.
My legs are so white the have their own glow at night,so hairy I need a bush hog if I ever decide to cut the hair on them,and so skinny that I look like I am walking on toothpicks.

So I concede that your legs are MUCH prettier and sexier then mine.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 08:35 am
Conservative humor, a definite oxymoron!

I don't believe in mindless optimism. I see a real shift in the country's fortune, especially with the Republicans in control. Look, Bush has done nothing about the energy, health insurance, global-warming, governmental-ethics, and foreign-affairs crises, not to mention the things mentioned earlier.

Hopefully, there will soon be new leadership that will address these issues. But I am not mindlessly optimistic. As Mencken said, no one ever lost money overestimating the intelligence of the American public.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 09:01 am
Advocate wrote:
Conservative humor, a definite oxymoron!

I don't believe in mindless optimism. I see a real shift in the country's fortune, especially with the Republicans in control. Look, Bush has done nothing about the energy, health insurance, global-warming, governmental-ethics, and foreign-affairs crises, not to mention the things mentioned earlier.

Hopefully, there will soon be new leadership that will address these issues. But I am not mindlessly optimistic. As Mencken said, no one ever lost money overestimating the intelligence of the American public.


I've accepted that you hate George Bush. You've made that abundantly clear. I do not accept that he 'has done nothing' about any of these things. There is a limit to how many things can go on a President's plate on any given day, and there is a definite limit to how much power a President has in implementing anything. Consider Bill Clinton's first two years in office with a Democrat controlled Congress. What did he accomplish those first two years? Zilch.

What got accomplished after those first two years? Quite a bit with a GOP controlled Congress under the leadership of the hated Trent Lott and the hated Newt Gingrich. You can despise these two gentlemen all you want but they got things done and some very good things were done. President Clinton, to his credit, signed off on most of it.

I have also been disappointed in the current President's approach or non approach to some things; have been proud of him in others. I have been disappointed in the current Congress's performance on several fronts; proud of them in a few.

But since Pearl Harbor, no U.S. Congress has chosen to deal with deliberate attacks on the USA and its people until 9/11 that changed everything. The response to 9/11 had overwhelming support from the American people in the beginning. But the people tend to have short memories and are often fickle when it comes to sustained conviction in the face of anything that is truly difficult to do or that includes disappointments and setbacks. Americans didn't used to be that way but they have become fat, lazy, apathetic, and unrealistic after decades of relative peace and prosperity.

But the underlying strength and appreciation of who and what we are is still there. Mindless optimism? Never. But reasoned optimism and belief in a people who will always rise to the occasion when the chips are down is the only way to go.

Consider that since Bush's tax cuts kicked in, I heard this week that just the INCREASE in the U.S. economy exceeds the whole GDP of China with five times the workers plus several other countries. Government revenues have never been higher. We have never had more people working or benefiting in many other ways. Now we have to find ways to not spend it all plus a lot more. But that's a problem that can be solved. We just have to have the will to solve it.

There is much to be optimistic about. Don't believe the negativity of the Krugmans and his ilk. They're wrong. They've always been wrong. And there is no reason to think they'll be right so long as we Americans continue to believe in ourselves.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 09:21 am
Bush has gotten pretty much everything that he asked for, except he failed to undermine social security.

The economy has been spurred by a spurt in home-building and massive borrowing. The economy has been helped (?) by massive government spending on a giant credit card. These are things that don't particularly increase the wealth of the country. If you follow the news, we are now facing slow growth and inflation.

I guess there are a lot of jobs, but they are low-level service ones for the most part. Job growth has been tepid, far below the growth during the terms of Dem presidents.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 09:38 am
Advocate wrote:
Bush has gotten pretty much everything that he asked for, except he failed to undermine social security.

The economy has been spurred by a spurt in home-building and massive borrowing. The economy has been helped (?) by massive government spending on a giant credit card. These are things that don't particularly increase the wealth of the country. If you follow the news, we are now facing slow growth and inflation.

I guess there are a lot of jobs, but they are low-level service ones for the most part. Job growth has been tepid, far below the growth during the terms of Dem presidents.


Bone up on your economics my friend. Government spending provides no sustained effect on the economy overall. What has fueled the incredible increase in the U.S. economy is more money in the pockets of Americans. The deficits we are seeing under George Bush are GDP proportionately miniscule when compared to those we had under Ronald Reagan and Democrats. We survived those quite nicely. And while I dislike deficit spending as much as the next person, both personally and nationally, we'll survive the current deficits as well.

The housing boom was a result of a great influx of disposable income plus low interest rate that were low to kick start an economy sent into a tailspin by 9/11. They worked. Inflation is always a worry and that's what keeps the feds tinkering with the interest rate to ensure it doesn't get out of hand. The impressive surge in the stock market this last week was in direct response to the GOOD NEWS that the economy has slowed and thus inflation is less of a worry. We are still having very good net increases every month however and a slowed economy in the midst of that is a good thing indicating that we don't have a runaway economy that will have to crash and burn at some point.

George Bush gets nothing that the Congress and/or the majority of the American people don't want. His veto of the stemcell research funding is grossly exaggerated to suggest that he is forbidding embrionic stemcell research. He isn't. He is simply saying the federal government isn't going to pay for it, and the federal government has been contributing very little to that research all the time. He is keeping yet another campaign promise. No mask. No subterfuge there. He has been on the record as personally opposing that kind of research and we elected him with that clearly on the record. He is not required to agree with each and every one of us on every single issue.

Those "low level" jobs you complain about are providing the highest standard of living in the world and unlimited opportunities for those who are entering the workforce at those entry level jobs. Didn't you start out in an entry level job? I did. Did you stay there? I didn't either.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 09:43 am
advocate said...

Quote:
I guess there are a lot of jobs, but they are low-level service ones for the most part. Job growth has been tepid, far below the growth during the terms of Dem presidents.


I wonder why,when the unemploymeny rate is lower now then it ever was under Clinton,how unemployment and the economy can be bad.
Under Clinton,the slightly higher unemployment rate was touted as a major accomplishment?

That doesnt make sense to me.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 10:55 am
Here is a piece that does a pretty good job in speaking to our economy.

http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060515/OPINION01/60512058/1039

Incidentally, what is going to happen to deficits when the baby-boomers reach retirement? Can they do anything but soar?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 11:21 am
Advocate wrote:
Here is a piece that does a pretty good job in speaking to our economy.

http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060515/OPINION01/60512058/1039

Incidentally, what is going to happen to deficits when the baby-boomers reach retirement? Can they do anything but soar?


Your link is to a typical Leftwing screed providing absolutely zero substantiation for a typical Leftwing perception fed by the likes of Krugman and other doomsday prophets. I can post a dozen other sources that directly contradict yours, but they have already been posted, probably most of them in this thread, and I frankly don't have the time or energy today to hunt them all up again.

If you want to find support for your negative outlook on America, the economy, etc. etc. you can always find it. There are plenty who really want to believe it. And if you want to find a plethora of evidence of the good news that is out there, you can find that too.

Everybody doesn't prosper in the very best of times. Some who do not have encountered ghastly bad luck. Most don't because they aren't willing to pay the necessary dues to avail themselves of the opportunities there. Those who wait for others to make it better for them or who think the government owes them a living will usually be angry, disappointed and disallusioned and will blame everybody and every thing for their troubles. Those who don't will do just fine 99% of the time.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 11:43 am
US economy slows sharply in 2d quarter

By Reuters | July 29, 2006

Quote:
WASHINGTON -- US economic expansion slowed abruptly in the second quarter to less than half the pace at the start of the year, while a key inflation gauge shot up at the fastest rate since 1994, the government reported yesterday.

The Commerce Department said the sharp slowdown was caused mainly by softer consumer spending.

The data raised expectations in financial markets that the Federal Reserve was near a halt in its two-year-old campaign of interest-rate rises.

Gross domestic product grew at a 2.5 percent annual rate in the April-June quarter, well below Wall Street analysts' forecasts for 3 percent and less than half the robust 5.6 percent rate registered in the first quarter.

GDP measures all goods and services produced within US borders and was running at an $11.4 trillion rate in the second quarter, after adjustments for inflation.

Not only was there a decrease in consumer spending on costly durables like cars, but export growth slowed, government spending was weaker, and housing investment turned down.

At the same time, an inflation gauge favored by the Federal Reserve -- a measure of personal consumption expenditure prices minus food and energy -- jumped at a 2.9 percent rate in the second quarter, well ahead of the first quarter's 2.1 percent.

In addition, the University of Michigan's final reading on consumer sentiment rose to 84.7 in July from an initial reading of 83.0, only modestly lower than June's 84.9 reading.


"Just the facts, mam" Joe Friday (trying to lighten up before getting off for the day. Odd place to do it I know Smile
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 11:54 am
Gee, sounds like we better cut taxes for the rich again.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 11:59 am
Here are the first four hits I got on recent pieces providing the good news I was talking about. Yes, you can find lots of stuff saying how bad it is. But you just can't corroborate all that doom and gloom stuff if you look at the real numbers.

If you don't want to read all four, at least look over the first one. It pretty much says it all.

http://www.projo.com/opinion/contributors/content/projo_20060721_21perry.119fd61.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/30/ap/business/mainD8IIPVBG0.shtml

http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pdupont/?id=110008699

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008640
0 Replies
 
 

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