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Bush supporters' aftermath thread II

 
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 12:48 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
I see. I think he's friendly, candid, genuine, and likeable, and this makes you think he's elitist and spoilt son-of-a-multimillionaire.


Not quite what I said, but whatever. I'd say that part of this problem lies in the system that is in place in the US. If you realistically want to have a chance at winning the presidency, you basically have to be a multimillionaire. That's just so much in contrast with other countries where political leaders in fact come frequently from a "working class" background.

I don't even mean this as an attack on Bush. IMO, if you want to attack Bush, attacking him because he is stinking rich is not the way to go.

However, I didn't even mean to go there. I'm really more interested in whether or not he'll expand on some of the points he mentioned in the SOTU.

Wouldn't it be funny if Bush all of a sudden became the motor of the environmentalist movement in the US?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 01:09 pm
old europe wrote:

Not quite what I said, but whatever. I'd say that part of this problem lies in the system that is in place in the US. If you realistically want to have a chance at winning the presidency, you basically have to be a multimillionaire. That's just so much in contrast with other countries where political leaders in fact come frequently from a "working class" background.


I don't believe this proposition could survive careful scrutiny of the facts -- either in the U.S. or in Europe. It may sound good when you say or write it, but not when you think about it.

Our presidents over the past 60 years (Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton, Bush Jr.) have been mostly middle or working class in their origins. The few 'aristocrats' among them weere mostly Democrats - Roosevelt and Kennedy most prominently (The Bush family money was quite new, made by Bush Sr's father.). The same ovservation holds true of the likely candidated for our next election. Only Kerry comes from swerious money and he is as politically dead as Al Gore (although he doesn't seem to understand the fact).

As for Europe, I will defer to 'old europe, Nimh, Walter and others. Is Jaques Chirac a working class hero? How about the Prime Minister, Dominique de Villepan?
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 01:19 pm
I'll have to concede that I have used the term "working class origins" rather careless.

However, if you take a look at the families (as in "parents") of the respective heads of state, and use their annual combined income as a yardstick and a 7-digit-number as the divide, I have the gut feeling that you would find a fundamental difference between the States and, for the sake of giving an example, Europe.

It would actually be quite interesting to research this bit of information....
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 01:26 pm
Thomas wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
I apologize.
I posted his words and he got angry.
I am just trying to find out why he got mad.

Since he is afraid to answer,I'll drop it.


Anon-Voter wrote:
I am not bickering. If you had been paying attention like the smart boy you like to think you are, you would have noticed that I have not responded nor have I addressed him directly or by innuendo since the thread lock. (except for telling him that I'm not doing it again) Since you have such a high opinion of your supposed intellect and high mindedness, I would have hoped you had noticed. Apparently you are not as smart or quick as you would like to think! If you have something to say, say it to MM, because I'm not the problem.

It was foolish of me to bother. Never mind Rolling Eyes


I'll say nothing more about it,except to point out that he has not denied saying what he was quoted as saying.
Ans since we know he did say it,that is all that needs to be said about his character.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 01:28 pm
old europe wrote:
.

It would actually be quite interesting to research this bit of information....


I agree that the answer is unclear and that work will be required to establish all the relevant facts.

My very strong impression, however, is that at least in continental Western Europe, social and economic mobility is MUCH, MUCH less than in the United States.

I also suspect that the multi-party parliamentary systems in Europe may well permit the easier rise to moderate political prominence of less well-funded political figures.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 02:05 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
old europe wrote:
.

It would actually be quite interesting to research this bit of information....


I agree that the answer is unclear and that work will be required to establish all the relevant facts.

My very strong impression, however, is that at least in continental Western Europe, social and economic mobility is MUCH, MUCH less than in the United States.

I also suspect that the multi-party parliamentary systems in Europe may well permit the easier rise to moderate political prominence of less well-funded political figures.


Are there countries in Europe who directly elect their leaders? Or rather do they elect those who will be the party and it is the party that chooses the leaders from among their ranks?
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 02:12 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
As for Europe, I will defer to 'old europe, Nimh, Walter and others. Is Jaques Chirac a working class hero? How about the Prime Minister, Dominique de Villepan?

I don't know. As for German chancellors, none of them were rich individuals. Schröder and Brandt were genuinely working class, the others were middle class. But something else does stand out when you compare our chancellors with your presidents: education. To my knowledge, only one out of your 43 presidents so far had a doctor's degree (Woodrow Wilson), while five of our eight chancellors did (Adenauer, Erhard, Kiesinger, Kohl, Schröder). I don't know where that difference come from, but the pattern seems too conspicuous to explain it as mere chance.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 02:26 pm
Merkle has a doctor degree as well - most presumable the very same as yours, Thomas :wink:
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 02:29 pm
Foxfyre wrote:

Are there countries in Europe who directly elect their leaders? Or rather do they elect those who will be the party and it is the party that chooses the leaders from among their ranks?


Well, the only half way comparable system to the US' is in France: they elect their president.
The prime minister is elected via election of a party (but known as "head" of the list before).

Same is elsewhere when you 'elect a party': you certainly know before who's heading the list.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 02:31 pm
Thomas wrote:
I don't know. As for German chancellors, none of them were rich individuals. Schröder and Brandt were genuinely working class, the others were middle class. But something else does stand out when you compare our chancellors with your presidents: education. To my knowledge, only one out of your 43 presidents so far had a doctor's degree (Woodrow Wilson), while five of our eight chancellors did (Adenauer, Erhard, Kiesinger, Kohl, Schröder). I don't know where that difference come from, but the pattern seems too conspicuous to explain it as mere chance.


At least in Wilson's case that doesn't argue well for advanced education as an indicator of wisdom and political skill as a leader. I believe the worst decision by any American President in the 20th century was Wilson's to enter WWI. Nothing good came of it. There was no basis on which to prefer the greed and ambition of Britain and France to that of Germany and Austria Hungary. The infusion of American troops on the Western Front merely allowed Britain and France to transfer an equivalent number to the Middle East in their ill-fated dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire. We are still dealing with the consaequences of that today.

Wilson, through his self-important and moralistic rhetoric excited hopes that neither he nor his "allies" were either inclined or able to deliver. The double-dealing and betrayals at Versailles by Lloyd George and Clemenceau, abetted by Wilson, set the stage for the ensuing disasters of the awful 20th century.

My experience in life suggests to me that a Doctorate qualifies one to teach or do research - little else. Wisdom, creativity, leadership, and strength of character are essential qualities that sometimes can be enhanced by advanced education, but are only rarely created by it. Indeed Adenauer and Kiesinger are an interesting contrast, together advancing the notion that personal qualities far transcent the levelling benefits of advanced education in political leadership.

American tradition (rather wisely I think) puts a degree of skepticism around self-appointed elites, including the educational one.

I have a PhD in science, and spent a good deal of time in graduate school. Apart from adding a degree of intyellectual self-confidence (arrogance some say), it has had little effect on my world view, my wisdom (to the degree that I have it) or the quality of my behavior.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 02:36 pm
Why didn't someone tell me we had a new thread?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 02:40 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Why didn't someone tell me we had a new thread?


Sorry, Tico. Here we go:

http://img484.imageshack.us/img484/9554/clipboard32xn.jpg

:wink:
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 02:44 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Merkle has a doctor degree as well - most presumable the very same as yours, Thomas :wink:

Embarrassed I knew she was a physicist, but believed the GDR authorities didn't let her finish her dissertation. But a Google search quickly refuted that.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 02:50 pm
Thanks, Walter.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 02:51 pm
Engineers are generally wiser than Physicists, but both are to be preferred to lawyers.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 02:53 pm
Thomas wrote:

Embarrassed I knew she was a physicist, but believed the GDR authorities didn't let her finish her dissertation.


Her PhD dissertation on "The Calculations of Speed Constants of Elementary Reactions in Simple Carbohydrates" was accepted in 1986 and afterwards ahe was a researcher at East-Berlin's Academy of Sciences.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 02:57 pm
Weren't Madison and Jefferson lawyers? I thought they did pretty well.

The great virtue of engineers is that they can leave good enough alone. It was an engineer who coined the phrase: "Not everything worth doing is worth doing well." This phrase couldn't have come from a physicist (or a lawyer). But I've heard of several economists who wish they'd invented it. I think we could use a few more economists in our administrations.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 02:59 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Thomas wrote:

Embarrassed I knew she was a physicist, but believed the GDR authorities didn't let her finish her dissertation.


Her PhD dissertation on "The Calculations of Speed Constants of Elementary Reactions in Simple Carbohydrates" was accepted in 1986 and afterwards ahe was a researcher at East-Berlin's Academy of Sciences.

That's what Google told me. I should have searched it earlier. Thanks for correcting me, Walter.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 02:59 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Engineers are generally wiser than Physicists, but both are to be preferred to lawyers.


Watch it ......
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 03:00 pm
Thomas wrote:
I think we could use a few more economists in our administrations.


Anything different to that opinion would lead to an expulsion from the party :wink:
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