3
   

Bush supporters' aftermath thread II

 
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Feb, 2006 01:00 pm
Foxfyre wrote:


President Bush hasn't vetoed anything at all since he has been president. I don't think he picked this as a fight at all, but this may be the first time that Congress has challenged him on something with very serious and far reaching implications. If so, his duty as President could be to veto it.


You might think that vetoing bloated budgets loaded with ear-marks, getting the patriot act sealed up, getting his judicial nominees confirmed (which, admittedly, has worked well of late), making the tax cuts permanent, reforming social security and a host of other things would fit in the "very serious and far reaching" category.

I for one would like to see any of those things taken care of before worrying about who owns a couple of ports.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Feb, 2006 01:17 pm
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:


President Bush hasn't vetoed anything at all since he has been president. I don't think he picked this as a fight at all, but this may be the first time that Congress has challenged him on something with very serious and far reaching implications. If so, his duty as President could be to veto it.


You might think that vetoing bloated budgets loaded with ear-marks, getting the patriot act sealed up, getting his judicial nominees confirmed (which, admittedly, has worked well of late), making the tax cuts permanent, reforming social security and a host of other things would fit in the "very serious and far reaching" category.

I for one would like to see any of those things taken care of before worrying about who owns a couple of ports.


So would I, but until Congress gives the President a line item veto he has to weigh shutting down the government or not funding absolutely critical programs against signing the allocation bills. Other presidents in the past have faced that same dilemma. Our quarrel in that regard is not with the president, no matter who he is, but with Congress.

And since I don't think the President, no matter who he is, should be forced into being the bad guy for everything that doesn't get funding, I support an iron clad law that forbids Congress from bundling unrelated pork into critical funding bills and every special project for any state should be debated and voted on individually. If Congress had to vote straight up or down on each item, I think we would solve a lot of our problem.

As for the Patriot act, confirmation of judicial nominees etc., again the President can only recommend. He can't confirm them himself and he can't pass a single law or a single budget item.

And until we the people make our elective representative's jobs contingent on them doing their jobs, I am not optimistic anything will change in the near future.

Ican has a thread started discussing the recommendations the President made in the State of the Union address. Already, with people who are very close ideologically, we are realizing the magnitude of the problems.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Feb, 2006 01:22 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Yes, it is more accurate to say the Dubai emirate government owns DP World. But isn't that a distinction without a difference?


No not really.

But you still say "Trader Joe's" and not Aldi (and after it is German since nearly 30 years). :wink:

And until now no-one opposed - as far as I know - that Chrysler is 'owned' by Kuweit and Dubai (= {nearly] the majority of shares of Daimler Chrysler AG are owned by Kuweiti and Dubai governmental members).


Does Chrysler own and operate any international ports?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Feb, 2006 01:38 pm
No, they don't.
But have you never thought what can be done to vehicles run by the forces and authorities ... ?
(No problems with Trader Joe's peanuts, though: I'm testing them personally nearly on daily basis!)
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Feb, 2006 01:57 pm
Foxy, he obviously can't get everything done on his own (ie. confirming judges, Patriot act, etc.) but we both know he has influence in order to help get those things done.

I just think it is a strange position to take a stand on when there are other things higher up on the priority list. If he does veto a bill that stops the transaction and it goes back to congress, it could put some republicans who are seeking re-election is a sticky situation. They either have to break ranks with the Pres or let the Dems claim they are soft on security. This is also an issue that the majority of people do not want to see happen. Could make it tricky for some Republicans.

I'm not saying he shouldn't take a stand on this but how far he pursues this could have an effect on other more important issues. He hasn't had the best of years and all I am saying is that he could better spend his capital on other issues.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Feb, 2006 02:27 pm
Tommy Franks pointed out last night that there are more U.S. Navy ships in the port of Dubai than any other foreign port. In the event we decided to bomb Iran; we'd likely use their airport. These are our allies, not our enemies. He also pointed out that 911 terrorists living and training in Florida likely had bank accounts and other government ID. This, in itself, proves nothing. He, like I, considers the opposition political BS through bigotry to obtain votes.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Feb, 2006 02:44 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Tommy Franks pointed out last night that there are more U.S. Navy ships in the port of Dubai than any other foreign port. In the event we decided to bomb Iran; we'd likely use their airport. These are our allies, not our enemies. He also pointed out that 911 terrorists living and training in Florida likely had bank accounts and other government ID. This, in itself, proves nothing. He, like I, considers the opposition political BS through bigotry to obtain votes.


Although I am still absorbing info. on this political firestorm, I think I agree. The rules have been in place now concerning this and lots of other economic activities that allows this to happen. To nix this strictly on the basis of this being a state owned company from the Middle East makes it inconsistent with other policies that have been followed to this point. If it were Iran, perhaps it would be slightly more worrisome. Bottom line, I do not think ownership changes the inspection procedures and requirements. Terrorists have hailed from numerous countries, and if we decided to quit doing business with all countries where terrorists have come from, our choices would be quite limited indeed. Now if the specific company proves to have proven and close ties to terrorists, that would change my mind.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Feb, 2006 02:46 pm
Perception is reality to those who believe it.


The perception of the American People is that they do not feel secure with a Govt Owned company running key ports.

Now the job of the President is to sell this to the American People.

By him saying to knuckleheads like Clinton and Schumer, I'll Veto This....does not sell.

By GW saying we looked at all the details and it is OK... again does not sell it to the public.

I personally am not sold on it for the obvious potential conflict of interest.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Feb, 2006 02:50 pm
woiyo wrote:
Perception is reality to those who believe it.


The perception of the American People is that they do not feel secure with a Govt Owned company running key ports.


We have no control over whether foreign companies are government controlled or not. Nixing business based on that is not consistent with everything we've done and currently do in conducting international trade and business. Besides, the country in question is an important ally of ours in the Middle East.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Feb, 2006 04:10 pm
Update on 'perception' on the radio today:

1) Rush Limbaugh has looked at all available information so far and, based on that information, he is in favor of allowing the UAE to take charge of the ports.

2) Sean Hannitty has looked at all available information so far and, based on that information, he is opposed to allowing the UAE to take charge of the ports.

3) Conspiracy theory #1: I heard several call in saying that the UAE is not union friendly, and it is the longshoreman's union that is stirring up all the sound and fury. They want a union-friendly European nation to take it.

4) Conspiracy theory #2: the deal is being brokered contingent on a deal with the UAE that they will a) lay off Israel and/or b) provide a base for the USA to take out Iran's nuclear weapons.

5) Conspiracy theory #3: the deal was made under the table on the theory that every terrorist organization would go after UAE controlled American ports to discredit Bush.

So there you are. Clear as mud ain't it?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Feb, 2006 04:12 pm
Obviously some forgot e.g. that's quite easy to ask the unions in various other countries (like e.g the UK and Germany).

Q: in 2004 no-one discussed that DPW bought the US-firm CSX in 2004.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Feb, 2006 05:32 pm
Did everyone here see thisPost?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Feb, 2006 12:22 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Clear as mud ain't it?


I agree its not real clear. Certainly not to me that knows nothing about ports and how they work. One of the things that seems I've heard is that there are no domestic companies that can run the port or that desire to run the port, so we are at the mercy of a foreign company doing this anyway. For now, I am going to trust the administration people that have looked into this, are informed on it, and have okayed it, until I learn something that is a huge red flag.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Feb, 2006 12:25 pm
Update on expressed opinions out there:

Coulter and Malkin both on the record as opposing the deal.

Krauthammer mentions a new argument: "UAE management of the port would give them privy to USA classified security systems, or more importantly the holes in them, and such information could be passed on to Al Qaida or others. Nevertheless, Krauthammer points out that the UAE's relationship with the USA has been good, and he thinks the diplomatic fallout would exceed the risk and recommends going forward with the sale with additional USA scrutiny assigned to monitor activities.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Feb, 2006 12:33 pm
okie wrote:
I agree its not real clear. Certainly not to me that knows nothing about ports and how they work.


I admit by now that I'm got more confused with the various than I've already been before ... and I know how ports work, at least in some European countries.
(Security for instance has nothing at all to do with who runs what part of the harbour. Just asked those US-agents, who are on 24/24 - 7/7 in nearly all European ports :wink: )
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Feb, 2006 01:27 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Update on expressed opinions out there:

Coulter and Malkin both on the record as opposing the deal.

Krauthammer mentions a new argument: "UAE management of the port would give them privy to USA classified security systems, or more importantly the holes in them, and such information could be passed on to Al Qaida or others. Nevertheless, Krauthammer points out that the UAE's relationship with the USA has been good, and he thinks the diplomatic fallout would exceed the risk and recommends going forward with the sale with additional USA scrutiny assigned to monitor activities.


The same thing could be said about Emirates, the airline that flies directly into New York. They've been given privy to USA classified security systems. They've been given privy to the holes in them. And such information could be passed on to Al Qaida or others.

Really, the US should probably just stop dealing with all those pesky Arabs.....
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Feb, 2006 01:44 pm
Here's the Krauthammer article Foxy was talking about:

Quote:
February 24, 2006
A Dubai Finesse
By Charles Krauthammer


WASHINGTON -- If only Churchill were alive today, none of this would be happening. The proud imperialist would have taken care that the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Co., chartered in 1840 by Victoria (``by the grace of God ... Queen defender of the faith'' on ``this thirty first day of December in the fourth year of our reign''), would still be serving afternoon tea and crumpets on some immaculate Jewel-in-the-Crown cricket pitch in Ceylon.

The United Arab Emirates would still be a disunited bunch of subsistence Arab tribes grateful for the protection of the British Navy in the Persian Gulf.

And we hapless Americans -- already desperately trying to mediate, pacify and baby-sit the ruins of Churchill's Empire: Iraq, Palestine, India/Pakistan, Yemen, even (Anglo-Egyptian) Sudan -- would not be in the midst of a mini-firestorm over the sale of the venerable P&O, which manages six American ports, to the UAE.

This has raised the obvious question of whether we want our ports, through which a nuclear bomb could come, handled by a country two of whose nationals flew into the South Tower on 9/11 and which has a history of laundering money and nuclear secrets from bad guys to worse guys.

Congress is up in arms. The Democrats, in particular, are in full cry, gleeful to at last get to the right of George Bush on an issue of national security.

Gleeful, and shamelessly hypocritical. If a citizen of the UAE walked into an airport in full burnoose and flowing robes, speaking only Arabic, Democrats would be deeply offended, and might even sue, if the security people were to give him any more scrutiny than they would to my sweet 84-year-old mother.

Democrats loudly denounce any thought of racial profiling. But when that same Arab, attired in business suit and MBA, and with a good record running ports in 15 countries, buys P&O, Democrats howl at the very idea of allowing Arabs to run our ports. (Republicans are howling too, but they don't grandstand on the issue of racial profiling.)

On this, the Democrats are rank hypocrites. But even hypocrites can be right. There is a problem. And the problem is not just the obvious one that an Arab-run company, heavily staffed with Arab employees, is more likely to be infiltrated by terrorists who might want to smuggle an awful weapon into our ports. But that would probably require some cooperation from the operating company. And neither the company nor the government of the UAE, which has been pro-American and a reasonably good ally in the war on terror, has any such record.

The greater and more immediate danger is that as soon as the Dubai company takes over operations, it will necessarily become privy to information about security provisions at crucial U.S. ports. That would mean a transfer of information about our security operations -- and perhaps even worse, about the holes in our security operations -- to a company in an Arab state in which there might be employees who, for reasons of corruption or ideology, would pass this invaluable knowledge on to al Qaeda-types.

That is the danger and it is a risk, probably an unnecessary one. It's not quite the end of the world that Democratic and Republican critics have portrayed it to be. After all, the UAE, which is run by a friendly regime, manages ports in other countries without any such incidents. Employees in other countries could leak or betray us just as easily. The issue, however, is that they are statistically more likely to be found in the UAE than, for example, in Britain.

It's a fairly close call. I can sympathize with the president's stubbornness in sticking to the deal. He is responsible for our foreign relations, and believes, not unreasonably, that it would harm our broader national interest to reject and humiliate a moderate Middle Eastern ally by pulling the contract just because a company is run by Arabs.

This contract should have been stopped at an earlier stage, but at this point doing so would cause too much damage to our relations with moderate Arab states. There are no very good options. The best exit strategy is this: (1) Allow the contract to go through; (2) give it heightened scrutiny by assigning a team of U.S. government agents to work inside the company at least for the first few years to make sure security is tight and information closely held; (3) have the team report every six months to both the executive and a select congressional committee.

Not nearly as clean as the Harriet Miers exit. But as I said, there are no very good options. There have not been very many since Britannia stopped ruling the waves, and it all fell to us.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Feb, 2006 11:24 pm
Quote:


Secretary of the Navy in the Reagan administration James Webb on Swift-boating:


Purple Heartbreakers
by James Webb

It should come as no surprise that an arch-conservative Web site is questioning whether Representative John Murtha, the Pennsylvania Democrat who has been critical of the war in Iraq, deserved the combat awards he received in Vietnam.

After all, in recent years extremist Republican operatives have inverted a longstanding principle: that our combat veterans be accorded a place of honor in political circles. This trend began with the ugly insinuations leveled at Senator John McCain during the 2000 Republican primaries and continued with the slurs against Senators Max Cleland and John Kerry, and now Mr. Murtha.

...

... To no one's surprise, surrogates carry out the attacks, leaving President Bush and other Republican leaders to benefit from the results while publicly distancing themselves from the actual remarks.



http://scoobiedavis.blogspot.com/
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Feb, 2006 11:05 am
I don't know what this has to do with this thread, but since it is brought up, it is not accurate to lump any form of military service criticism as "Swift Boating." I happen to think the Swift Boat people earned the right to speak a few facts about what happened. I contributed to their cause. I have personal reasons to affirm the general principles that they brought to bear on Mr. Kerry. I would not categorize the criticism of McCain or Murtha as even close to the same thing. And just because somebody supposedly served in the military, it does not earn them the right to be above any disagreement or criticism. Criticism, if valid, will gain traction, and if it is not, it probably won't gain traction.

The Swift Boat people attempted to simply respond to the slurs of Mr. Kerry that went back 30 years plus. The Swift Boat people did not start it. Lets get history correct here.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Feb, 2006 03:10 pm
okie wrote:
I don't know what this has to do with this thread, ...


It has nothing to do with this thread.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.06 seconds on 03/15/2025 at 03:23:39