Foxfyre wrote:Cycloptichorn wrote:I don't accept WH's anecdotal evidence as proof that you are wrong, Fox, for the record. You have done well enough on your own that it is uneccessary.
Cycloptichorn
As opposed to you who rarely ever has any support for his opinions interspersed with ad hominems because you don't have anything else to offer?
Whatever you need to say to avoid talking about the fact that you have not backed up your assertions about Germany and Russia, in the slightest, you go right ahead and say, Fox. It doesn't hurt my feelings.
Cycloptichorn
Walter Hinteler wrote:I'm referring to nothing else than to Foxfyre's use of terrorism to conquer Germany.
I don't think that my primary sources are anecdotal evidence. Neither do other historians.
I'm still waiting for you to respond to my last post addressed to you. Are you telling me Hitler was a great guy who employed no terrorists tactics of any kind?
Dopn't change the subject.
Walter Hinteler wrote:Dopn't change the subject.
I didn't change the subject. That IS the subject. That has been the subject for this whole exchange.
Foxfyre wrote:Cycloptichorn wrote:And, while we're waiting, I'm waiting on Okie, or anyone, to show an example of a nation which was conquered by terrorism.
Cycloptichorn
Try Germany post WWII
Russia during the Bolshevik revolution.
That appears to have been the subject <once it was diverted from the original topic>.
Who knows where it's being diverted now.
Foxfyre wrote:Walter Hinteler wrote:Dopn't change the subject.
I didn't change the subject. That IS the subject. That has been the subject for this whole exchange.
Well, I'm still trying to find an answer re:
Foxfyre wrote:Walter Hinteler wrote:Well, so I understand you correctly, Foxfyre, that we were conquered pre-WWII by terrorism?
By utilization, at least in part, of terrorist tactics yes. I am saying that.
ehBeth wrote:Foxfyre wrote:Cycloptichorn wrote:And, while we're waiting, I'm waiting on Okie, or anyone, to show an example of a nation which was conquered by terrorism.
Cycloptichorn
Try Germany post WWII
Russia during the Bolshevik revolution.
That appears to have been the subject <once>.
Who knows where it's being diverted now.
I also cited sources and I also explained where I was coming from when I included Germany and Russia. Does anybody say Hitler or Lenin would have made it to the top without the terrorist tactics they used to get there? I didn't say that terrorism was the ONLY means used, but then it rarely if ever is because the terrorist has to have people behind him to succeed. Maybe they would have made it to the top without it, but given the opposition they faced, I doubt it.
And once at the top, does anybody dispute the terrorist tactics implemented to keep them there?
Now if Walter tells me I'm wrong about that re Germany, I'll accept that from somebody more informed than I am. But right now he seems to be trying to change the subject himself.
while this thread is called "bush supporters aftermath" , it seems to have gone into the history of germany from about 1930 and onwards .
imo one of the better descriptions can be found in 'historyplace' - linked below .
while i've noticed some minor inaccuracies (example : placing the city of hamburg in the state of prussia) , imo it gives a good overview of what took place in germany during those years .
perhaps a separate thread should be started for anyone interested in german history .
hbg
...HITLER AND GERMANY...
What terrorist tactics did Hitler use to rise to power?
The question was, 'what countries have been conquered by terrorism historically?' Okie had no answer to that question, and neither apparently do you.
The reason this is important, is because it shows that the attitude of
Quote:OMG THE ISLAMOFACISTS WANT TO KILL AND ENSLAVE US ALL WE MUST DEFEND ATTACK KILL THEM NOTHING ELSE MATTERS BY THE WAY VOTE REPUBLICAN BECAUSE THE DEMS WILL LET THE ISLAMOFASCISTS KILL YOU
is a bullsh*t attitude. Which is why when Fox said
I responded
Cycloptichorn
from Pat Tillman's brother, Kevin Tillman...
Quote:Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes.
Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.
Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.
much more here
hamburger wrote:while this thread is called "bush supporters aftermath" , it seems to have gone into the history of germany from about 1930 and onwards .
imo one of the better descriptions can be found in 'historyplace' - linked below .
while i've noticed some minor inaccuracies (example : placing the city of hamburg in the state of prussia) , imo it gives a good overview of what took place in germany during those years .
perhaps a separate thread should be started for anyone interested in german history .
hbg
...HITLER AND GERMANY...
I suggested that some pages back Hamburger, but these folks aren't interested in disucssing Hitler and Germany. They just want to get me and I'm not willing to be misquoted, mischaracterized, or misrepresented just so they can feel smug. I've given Walter a very big opening to tell me I'm wrong. I'm still waiting.
I'm willing to accept being wrong if somebody clearly shows me where I'm in error. So far nobody has on this issue.
Foxfire,
Do you mean when Hitler changed the constitution, imprisoned dessenters illegally, and destroyed anyone in government that opposed him?
Then you're correct. He did use terrorist tactics - but only after
he was named Chancellor.
from the section "the reichstag burns" :
"On his first day as chancellor, Hitler manipulated Hindenburg into dissolving the Reichstag and calling for the new elections he had wanted - to be held on March 5, 1933.
That evening, Hitler attended a dinner with the German General Staff and told them Germany would re-arm as a first step toward regaining its former position in the world. He also gave them a strong hint of things to come by telling them there would be conquest of the lands to the east and ruthless Germanization of conquered territories.
Hitler also reassured the generals there would be no attempt to replace the regular army with an army of SA storm troopers. For years this had been a big concern of the generals who wanted to preserve their own positions of power and keep the traditional military intact.
Hitler's storm troopers were about to reach new heights of power of their own and begin a reign of terror that would last as long as the Reich.
President Hindenburg had fallen under Hitler's spell and was signing just about anything put in front of him. He signed an emergency decree that put the German state of Prussia into the hands of Hitler confidant, Vice Chancellor Papen. Göring as Minister of the Interior for Prussia took control of the police. Prussia was Germany's biggest and most important state and included the capital of Berlin.
Göring immediately replaced hundreds of police officials loyal to the republic with Nazi officials loyal to Hitler. He also ordered the police not to interfere with the SA and SS under any circumstances. This meant that anybody being harassed, beaten, or even murdered by Nazis, had nobody to turn to for help.
Göring then ordered the police to show no mercy to those deemed hostile to the State, meaning those hostile to Hitler, especially Communists.
"Police officers who use weapons in carrying out their duties will be covered by me. Whoever misguidedly fails in this duty can expect disciplinary action." - Order of Hermann Göring to Prussian Police, February 1933.
On February 22, Göring set up an auxiliary police force of 50,000 men, composed mostly of members of the SA and SS. The vulgar, brawling, murderous Nazi storm troopers now had the power of police.
Two days later, they raided Communist headquarters in Berlin. Göring falsely claimed he had uncovered plans for a Communist uprising in the raid. But he actually uncovered the membership list of the Communist party and intended to arrest every one of the four thousand members.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i'm not sure if it exactly fits the term 'terrorism' ; but certainly a fair number of people - former communists , social-democrats , jews , homosexuals , former union leaders, to name a few - lived in fear .
quite a number of them where arrested , sent to 're-education camps' - later to be called concentration camps - and many died over the next several years there .
there were also a fair number of 'street battles' were germans on both side of the political divide were killed - of course , nothing like we see in iraq today . perhaps on might compare it to the street-battles that took place in french society from time to time .
the majority of the germans adjusted as well as they could to the regime and 'kept their nose to the grindstone' .
and many governments of the world thought that germany was a splendidly governed country (one only has to read some of the books written in the 1930's in britain to find that germany was considered as a 'good example' of how to run a country successfully) .
hbg
Stradee wrote:Foxfire,
Do you mean when Hitler changed the constitution, imprisoned dessenters illegally, and destroyed anyone in government that opposed him?
Then you're correct. He did use terrorist tactics - but only after
he was named Chancellor.
Hamburger described some of it and yes, this is how Hitler stayed in power. If terrorism is defined as instilling fear in people or using force to punish/destroy/maim/kill non-militants for their views or opposition or whatever, then both Hitler and Lenin employed such tactics on their rise to power also. At least if my sources are correct, both those I have read and those I have posted today.
Or are you saying Hitler was a peaceful, non threatening type, gentle soul on his rise to power? I've asked Walter, no doubt the resident expert, to answer that one and so far silence.
blatham wrote:from Pat Tillman's brother, Kevin Tillman...
Quote:Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes.
Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.
Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.
much more here
If people won't allow the truth to filter in after reading Kevin Tillmans' testimonial, they never will.
Foxfyre wrote:Stradee wrote:Foxfire,
Do you mean when Hitler changed the constitution, imprisoned dessenters illegally, and destroyed anyone in government that opposed him?
Then you're correct. He did use terrorist tactics - but only after
he was named Chancellor.
Hamburger described some of it and yes, this is how Hitler stayed in power. If terrorism is defined as instilling fear in people or using force to punish/destroy/maim/kill non-militants for their views or opposition or whatever, then both Hitler and Lenin employed such tactics on their rise to power also. At least if my sources are correct, both those I have read and those I have posted today.
Or are you saying Hitler was a peaceful, non threatening type, gentle soul on his rise to power? I've asked Walter, no doubt the resident expert, to answer that one and so far silence.
Good God, NO! Hitler was a thug! He used every conceivable tactic not only against his own people, but imprisoning those he deemed inferior - and destroyed millions of innocent people.
"Peaceful, non threatening, gentle soul" arn't the words i'd use to describe Hitler.
hamburger wrote:from the section "the reichstag burns" :
"On his first day as chancellor, Hitler manipulated Hindenburg into dissolving the Reichstag and calling for the new elections he had wanted - to be held on March 5, 1933.
That evening, Hitler attended a dinner with the German General Staff and told them Germany would re-arm as a first step toward regaining its former position in the world. He also gave them a strong hint of things to come by telling them there would be conquest of the lands to the east and ruthless Germanization of conquered territories.
Hitler also reassured the generals there would be no attempt to replace the regular army with an army of SA storm troopers. For years this had been a big concern of the generals who wanted to preserve their own positions of power and keep the traditional military intact.
Hitler's storm troopers were about to reach new heights of power of their own and begin a reign of terror that would last as long as the Reich.
President Hindenburg had fallen under Hitler's spell and was signing just about anything put in front of him. He signed an emergency decree that put the German state of Prussia into the hands of Hitler confidant, Vice Chancellor Papen. Göring as Minister of the Interior for Prussia took control of the police. Prussia was Germany's biggest and most important state and included the capital of Berlin.
Göring immediately replaced hundreds of police officials loyal to the republic with Nazi officials loyal to Hitler. He also ordered the police not to interfere with the SA and SS under any circumstances. This meant that anybody being harassed, beaten, or even murdered by Nazis, had nobody to turn to for help.
Göring then ordered the police to show no mercy to those deemed hostile to the State, meaning those hostile to Hitler, especially Communists.
"Police officers who use weapons in carrying out their duties will be covered by me. Whoever misguidedly fails in this duty can expect disciplinary action." - Order of Hermann Göring to Prussian Police, February 1933.
On February 22, Göring set up an auxiliary police force of 50,000 men, composed mostly of members of the SA and SS. The vulgar, brawling, murderous Nazi storm troopers now had the power of police.
Two days later, they raided Communist headquarters in Berlin. Göring falsely claimed he had uncovered plans for a Communist uprising in the raid. But he actually uncovered the membership list of the Communist party and intended to arrest every one of the four thousand members.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i'm not sure if it exactly fits the term 'terrorism' ; but certainly a fair number of people - former communists , social-democrats , jews , homosexuals , former union leaders, to name a few - lived in fear .
quite a number of them where arrested , sent to 're-education camps' - later to be called concentration camps - and many died over the next several years there .
there were also a fair number of 'street battles' were germans on both side of the political divide were killed - of course , nothing like we see in iraq today . perhaps on might compare it to the street-battles that took place in french society from time to time .
the majority of the germans adjusted as well as they could to the regime and 'kept their nose to the grindstone' .
and many governments of the world thought that germany was a splendidly governed country (one only has to read some of the books written in the 1930's in britain to find that germany was considered as a 'good example' of how to run a country successfully) .
hbg
Hamburger, I believe that Hitler used terrorist tactics - intimidation, lies, deceit, etc - all constitute fear. His own people were afraid to speak against him, and those in the military that did, were executed. There are many forms of control used by dictators, Hitler probably invented most of them.
btw, tico - your avatar? he 'respects' hitler...
the same guy that told Letterman "i'm as affiliated with gwb as i am to an oscar"
he should receive an award for just saying that!
Foxfyre wrote:Or are you saying Hitler was a peaceful, non threatening type, gentle soul on his rise to power? I've asked Walter, no doubt the resident expert, to answer that one and so far silence.
No, Hitler wasn't such a person. (The Nazis came to power by democratic elections and not by terroristic acts, though. [The "saloon fights" in my native town between communists/social democrats and SA-men were quite famous.])
And I don't sleep a lot, but do need some hours.
