1
   

Why insulting prophet Muhammad?!

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 01:05 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
I appreciate and sympathize with the points Nimh made, but do not believe that the published cartoons in question were - in terms of the message they conveyed - in any way justification for the Moslem outrage - and violent actions - that followed.

And can you quote any message by me (or by any of the regular posters here for that matter) in which it was actually said that those violent actions were "justified"? Or is this just another limb for the straw man thats being beaten to death here now?

nimh-loves-to-mix-his-metaphors

http://www.ghostchatter.com/img/smiley/deadhorse3.gif
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 01:07 pm
And I love that emoticon.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 01:08 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
nimh wrote:
Make that "what the more radical Muslims who are now protesting", and yeah sure, I agree with you.

Been plenty of Muslims who are not calling for such prohibitions too: see here and here for anothr four examples just randomly plucked from whats already been posted here or there on these threads. But it just doesnt seem to get registered.

I am aware there are "moderate" muslims (a term I find difficult, either you are a muslim or not, surely) but for want of a better term...who deplore the violence of a few and who are deeply hurt that their religion's good name is being dragged into disrepute. I actually feel sorry for them. (And although I might think them stupid for believing such a load of nonsense, I wouldnt say so directly). The trouble is these people are not in control. They are not making the running. The militants have hijacked muslim airways and ordinary muslim passengers are going to get hurt.

Fair enough.

Though it might be worthwhile, to regain some perspective, to read John SImpson's reminder that hamburger posted earlier in this thread:

Quote:
Western embassies in Middle Eastern cities have been torched. Angry crowds have marched in the streets of London carrying placards calling for beheadings and massacres.

Yet [..] there were no demonstrations at all in a sizeable number of Muslim countries. In Iran, Egypt, Pakistan and Iraq, the demonstrations passed off quietly.

There has been serious trouble in Gaza, Damascus and Beirut, but in each case, local tensions clearly boiled up and found their expression in this particular issue.

In Syria, such violence is so rare that some people have wondered whether the attacks on the Danish and Norwegian embassies might not have been provoked by government agents, in order to discredit the beleaguered Islamists there.

In Lebanon, the continuing tension between supporters of the Syrians and supporters of the Americans played a part in the violence in Beirut.

When a breakaway group started to attack a Christian church at Ashrafiya, a group of Muslim clerics did everything they could to stop them.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 01:15 pm
nimh wrote:
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Anyway I have the answer to all this. Its called a compromise. The muslims accept that newspapers have the ABSOLUTE RIGHT to publish cartoons featuring Mohammed, and the newspapers accept they have a duty not to cause gratuitous offense.

I myself wouldnt even have said "duty", but yeah, that was pretty much (more than) all that folks like FD and I argued from the start ....
But what you left out Nimh was my comment that the word compromise was not in the Islamic dictionary. With the muslims who are driving all this, there can be no compromise. They say "We dont want to compromise with you, we want to KILL YOU".
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 01:34 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
nimh wrote:
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Anyway I have the answer to all this. Its called a compromise. The muslims accept that newspapers have the ABSOLUTE RIGHT to publish cartoons featuring Mohammed, and the newspapers accept they have a duty not to cause gratuitous offense.

I myself wouldnt even have said "duty", but yeah, that was pretty much (more than) all that folks like FD and I argued from the start ....

But what you left out Nimh was my comment that the word compromise was not in the Islamic dictionary. With the muslims who are driving all this, there can be no compromise. They say "We dont want to compromise with you, we want to KILL YOU".

Well, you're again conflating "the Islamic dictionary" with "the muslims who are driving all this". And since "all this" has been mostly suspiciously orchestrated-looking protests in a range, but by far not all Muslim countries - and since even just the people in the randomly-found links I gave just now already apparently do have an Islamic dictionary that does include such words, I'd say that's too short through the curve, as we say.

Furthermore, I left it out because what relevance does it have for the decision that's ours to make? Are we going to let them determine in what mode we react now? Or do we remain ourselves and true to our own principles?

If what is right to our standards is a compromise roughly along the lines you sketch, then that is what we should live by. Just because Muslim fanatics will not do their part of what is wise and decent in this compromise, is no reason for us to in turn not to do our part of what is wise and decent either - how'd that make things any better?

Its the same logical fallacy as I pointed out in Ayaan Hirsi Ali's words in this post.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 01:41 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
They say "We dont want to compromise with you, we want to KILL YOU".


A few years ago I was watching a news clip of palestinian fighters in the West Bank or Gaza, not sure. One young fighter with a black mask on his face was talking to the reporter. All I remember are these words: "the Israeli's don't want peace, they just want to kill us. We're not going to let them kill us." I'm quite sure he believed that just as strongly as you believe what you are saying. You may both be right, I don't know. But such thinking can only really keep you in a perpetually reactive mode.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 01:47 pm
I've seldom agreed with Bush. But here I do:

...we believe in a free press. We also recognize that with freedom comes responsibilities.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 01:47 pm
nimh wrote:
[And can you quote any message by me (or by any of the regular posters here for that matter) in which it was actually said that those violent actions were "justified"? Or is this just another limb for the straw man thats being beaten to death here now?


I did not intend to say or imply that you yourself had justified the reaction in the Moslem world to the cartoons. I can see that the way I expressed my point left that possibility open. Not my intent at all. I recognize that your remarke were only a plea for restraint and moderation on both sides. Sorry.

However I do believe that in terms of the overall discussion the point I made is valid. It is not a straw man at all -- it is central to the ongoing struggle between the Moslem world and the West.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 01:59 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
They say "We dont want to compromise with you, we want to KILL YOU".


A few years ago I was watching a news clip of palestinian fighters in the West Bank or Gaza, not sure. One young fighter with a black mask on his face was talking to the reporter. All I remember are these words: "the Israeli's don't want peace, they just want to kill us. We're not going to let them kill us." I'm quite sure he believed that just as strongly as you believe what you are saying. You may both be right, I don't know. But such thinking can only really keep you in a perpetually reactive mode.
it is actually me and you i think fd and nimh who want to compromise.

Moreover there is a real difference between the current cartoon wars and the Israeli Palestinian war. One is purely a battle over abstract ideas, the other is a vicious fight over land and living.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 02:15 pm
One of Jyllands-Posten editors, btw, said today that they will join an Iranian paper in publishing caricatures of the Holocaust.


Quote:
On Wednesday, the {culture] section's current editor, Flemming Rose, told The Associated Press he is trying to contact an Iranian paper that plans to publish satirical cartoons about the Holocaust as a response to the Muhammad caricatures. "We would run the cartoons the same day as they publish them," Rose said.

The idea for the Prophet Muhammad drawings stemmed from a complaint by author Kaare Bluitgen, who said he could not find an illustrator for his planned children's book about the prophet.

Jyllands-Posten's culture page put the matter to several cartoonists, questioning whether sensitivities over Islam were prompting self-censorship. The Sept. 30 portfolio of a dozen drawings was the result.

But questions have arisen over whether Jyllands-Posten is practising its own self-censorship.

A disgruntled artist whose cartoons about Jesus were rejected by the paper in 2003 has been circulating an e-mail from the Sunday edition editor who turned down the drawings, saying they "will provoke an outcry."

"I turned them down because they were not good, their quality was not good," the editor, Jens Kaiser, said Wednesday. "I have been Sunday editor for 18 years, and I can say that 90-95 per cent of the unsolicited material we get is turned down."

The paper has apologized for any offence the cartoons caused to devout Muslims, but has defended its decision to print them as within the bounds of free expression.

The position strikes some as principled, others as obstinate. But it is one the paper appears sure to uphold even as the protests spread.

This week, representatives of Danish Muslims suggested working with Jyllands-Posten to develop a joint statement aimed at calming the tensions.

Juste said such a statement would be possible only "if (Muslims) recognize the existence in Denmark of the freedom of speech."
Source
0 Replies
 
Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 02:15 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
They say "We dont want to compromise with you, we want to KILL YOU".


A few years ago I was watching a news clip of palestinian fighters in the West Bank or Gaza, not sure. One young fighter with a black mask on his face was talking to the reporter. All I remember are these words: "the Israeli's don't want peace, they just want to kill us. We're not going to let them kill us." I'm quite sure he believed that just as strongly as you believe what you are saying. You may both be right, I don't know. But such thinking can only really keep you in a perpetually reactive mode.


I am afraid that Steve's way of seeing it, is very much how I see it, freeduck.
The fanatics will NOT compromise. Either you abide by their way of doing things, or death threats are issued, and attacks on cities happen.
If any "moderate" muslim expresses disapproval, the fanatics will declare them "Munafiqeen"(sp?), which is basically someone who only pretends to be a muslim, and issues threats against THEM as well.

The hardline Islamist will ONLY see it his way. You either give in to their every demand, whilst making sure that you live your life so that it never causes them even the slightest reason to find fault with you, or you will be subject to threats and intimidation.

The mosque leaders are terrified of these people, and are showing great bravery when they come out on TV or in the press, denouncing those that take fanatical action.

There is NO middle ground here. Not as far as the fanatic is concerned.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 02:19 pm
Fanatics come in all shapes, sizes and colors. We decide whether they have clout or not.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 02:24 pm
"Juste said such a statement would be possible only "if (Muslims) recognize the existence in Denmark of the freedom of speech.""

Thats exactly what I've just been saying Walter, though I fear the muslims 'who count' will not do so.
0 Replies
 
Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 02:25 pm
Freeduck, these fanatics come in very great numbers, have sophisticated networks and are well trained. They have great financial and spiritual backing, and have the knowledge to make effective bombs. They also welcome death.

It will take a complete change of attitude on behalf of our politicians in the UK, the Muslim community re. cooperation with the authorities during any investigations, and a hardline approach from our police to give us the "clout" to sort these guys out.

I think that this will now happen. I don't know how long it will take, but it will happen, IMO.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 02:33 pm
Lord Ellpus wrote:

I am afraid that Steve's way of seeing it, is very much how I see it, freeduck.
Thank you so much for your support my Lord. With all due deference to class money and breeding...one is indeed chuffed that a loyal subject...sees it as what we does.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 02:34 pm
Lord Ellpus wrote:
It will take a complete change of attitude on behalf of our politicians in the UK, the Muslim community re. cooperation with the authorities during any investigations, and a hardline approach from our police to give us the "clout" to sort these guys out.

I think that this will now happen. I don't know how long it will take, but it will happen, IMO.


I hope you're right.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Feb, 2006 09:39 pm
nimh wrote:
Lash wrote:
Censure DOES erode freedom of expression. It just does.

Well, well have to disagree there then.

If you say something stupid, and I tell you, "that was a stupid thing to say", I am not eroding your "freedom of speech".

Not in any world I can imagine.

In fact, I am exercising mine.

Thats where Hamza Al-Looni-Fundie and FreeDuck or I are different. Al-Looni-Fundi wants the Jylland-Posten shut down, burnt down, wants the government to intervene. Thats an attack against press freedom.

We are saying that newspaper was stupid. Thats merely exercising our own freedom of speech. Media are no more above all criticism than any other institution. Not in war either.

Lash wrote:
Criticising Jyllands-Posten is blame. Either they are wrong--and are criticised----or they are blameless, and completely above criticism.

Do you blame them--or are they completely blameless?

I see that Lash is back into black-and-white-mode: either they are innocent as saints, or they are the ones to blame (and not the fundies). And everyone who says anything in between is capitulating.
Cant argue with that logic. I mean, literally can't; nothing to argue with, no use.

Its a non-sequitur.

This is disappointing. Look at the red. You created something and attributed it to me--and it was not my thought or statement. I am asking for a straight answer--but I certainly didn't say "And everyone who says anything in between is capitulating."

However, either the paper has done a degree of wrong--or they have not.

Have they? Or, have they not? I think you try to press characterizations of me because the straight answer forces you to make a judgment you didn't count on being held accountable for.
0 Replies
 
catch22
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 07:01 am
Quote:


ZNet | Race

Nothing to Kill or Die For
by Mahir Ali; February 06, 2006

AT the start of this week, the death toll stood at three and the situation seemed likely to deteriorate, even as commentators throughout Europe tried to hose down suggestions that what we have been witnessing is a clash of civilizations. It is harder to allay the impression that it is a clash of cultures, exacerbated by inordinate degrees of obduracy on both sides.

Simplistic views of the dispute reduce it to a contest between two absolutes: immutable religious beliefs and uncompromising freedom of speech. And never the twain shall meet, goes the argument, which is often deployed in defence of the stance that Islamic and European value systems are inherently incompatible. Invariably, the implicit or explicit corollary is that most Muslim immigrants will never really fit into Europe.

There is no incontrovertible evidence that this is what the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten set out to illustrate late last September, when it decided to publish a dozen third-rate caricatures of Prophet Muhammad. It had apparently commissioned the drawings as a sort of test case after hearing from comedian Frank Hyam that he was scared of satirizing the Quran, and after learning that children's writer Bent Bludnikow, who had written a book about the Prophet, couldn't find any illustrators who were willing to put their names to their work.

Neither the poor quality of the caricatures, nor - more significantly - the fact that at least a few of them were explicitly racist deterred Jyllands-Posten from publishing them. The newspaper reputedly has a history of extremist inclinations, including support for Mussolini and Hitler back in the 1930s. More recently, Denmark has been among the European countries where xenophobia been whipped up by right-wing forces. The conservative government of prime minister Anders Rasmussen depends for its survival on the parliamentary support of the Danish People's Party, one of whose MPs has publicly likened Muslims in Europe to "a cancer".

This context is obviously not irrelevant to the publication of the cartoons, which was followed by angry complaints from Danish Muslims, protest marches and, deplorably, death threats against journalists and cartoonists. After Rasmussen refused to receive a delegation of Muslim ambassadors, some local imams decided to go on a tour of the Muslim world with a dossier containing the offending drawings and their correspondence with the authorities, along with three further caricatures considerably more obscene and inflammatory than anything published by Jyllands-Posten.

The provenance of these supplementary drawings is uncertain: they are said to have been received in the mail by unnamed Muslims in Denmark. It is not clear whether the distinction between the two sets of cartoons was clear to all those who saw the sexed-up dossier.

Was parading the sketches through the Muslim world such a a terribly good idea? Having made clear how hurt they were, it may have been wisest for the concerned Danish Muslims to leave it at that.

It would, no doubt, have helped if Jyllands-Posten had promptly apologized for its indiscretion and if Rasmussen had at least lent an ear to the protesters. The apologies came only after a boycott of Danish goods in the Middle East threatened to hurt Denmark's economy, which raises doubts about their sincerity. Jyllands-Posten, incidentally, has expressed regret for injuring Muslim feelings, not for publishing the caricatures.

In retrospect, would it not have been best from the Muslim point of view if the matter had been restricted to Denmark? Among other things, that would probably have prevented the cartoons from being reproduced in newspapers throughout Western Europe, as they were last week (with the notable exception of Britain). More important, that may also have kept the issue from being adopted by the international brotherhood of extremists.

Small bands of British Muslims, for instance, have chosen to express their anger through vows of further atrocities along the lines of 9/11 and 7/7. That's precisely the sort of asinine emotional bluster that feeds into the consciousness of those who, in turn, might choose to condemn all Muslims as terrorists or endow a representative figure with a fuse-bearing turban. Nor has the torching of embassies in Damascus and Beirut done wonders for the image of the followers of Islam.

It could be argued that even the commercial boycott and diplomatic ruptures have implicitly been based on the misapprehension that European governments exercise the sort of control over the press that is more or less mandatory through much of the Middle East. A plea to the Vatican by the Saudi interior minister, Prince Nayef, also hints at a naive misconception of the church's role in Europe.

Europeans are justifiably proud of their right to free speech, won during a long struggle against the power of the very church that Prince Nayef appealed to, plus various other vested interests. However, it is not a right that has consistently been honoured during the past century. Even now, there are limits to free speech, some based on custom and common sense, others enshrined in legislation.

For instance, in Germany and Austria, Holocaust denial - that is, to contend that Nazis did not conduct a campaign of Judaeocide - is punishable by imprisonment. Whether or not this is justified, the point is that it is clearly a curb on the freedom of expression, in a country - Germany - where newspapers seemed a bit too keen to reproduce the Danish drawings, using the argument that to refrain from doing so would be tantamount to self-censorship. Other European papers contended that republication of the cartoons was necessary in order to show their readers what the fuss was all about. But would they have been quite so eager to go down that road had the story - and illustrations - in question related to, say, graphic child pornography or paedophilia?

Most probably not. Why? Obviously, in the interests of good taste, and in order not to offend public sensibilities. Does this mean Muslim sensitivities somehow matter less than those of other sections of the public?

Another argument that has been trotted out by numerous Western commentators is that all sorts of satirical and sometimes even derogatory references to biblical luminaries are commonplace in their culture, so why should Islamic figures merit a different approach? There is some validity in this point. Depictions of Jesus Christ, for instance, that would once have invited charges of blasphemy and harsh punishment now generally elicit no more than a few polite protests, if that (although there are occasional exceptions).

However, one suspects there would be a wider and more emotional response were Jesus to be disrespectfully depicted in a Muslim or a Jewish publication. And, while we're on the subject, it's probably also worth pondering whether Jyllands-Posten's efforts would have been reproduced quite so widely across Europe had the object of derision been Jews rather than Muslims.

Some European writers have compared the Danish caricatures to the open slather against Jews that culminated in the Holocaust. Others have noted that they would have sympathised more readily with the Muslim outrage had anti-Semitism not been so rampant in the Islamic world. Neither of these views seems altogether unreasonable.

Meanwhile, there are various other pertinent questions that need to be raised, and directed at Muslims - predominantly those who are always on the look-out for any opportunity to take up arms (metaphorically or otherwise) in the face of perceived insults to their faith, rather than the less excitable sorts whose moderate voices tend to be drowned out amid the cacophony.

The most obvious of these is, which of the following has lately contributed more towards reinforcing Islamophobia: the stupid cartoons, which in the normal course of events would have vanished from the consciousness of most Jyllands-Posten readers within a few days, or the violent protests in the Muslim world, the instances of arson, the unambiguous death threats and invocations of terror and hellfire on the streets of London and elsewhere?

Then again, is it reasonable to expect secular societies to abide by Islamic strictures against iconography (which aren't accepted by all Muslim sects anyhow)? Besides, isn't it sometimes wiser - and braver -to let sleeping dogmas lie? Furthermore, regardless of their validity, don't Muslim complaints of victimization in Europe ring a little hollow when so many Islamic countries go out of their way to discriminate against religious minorities?

Echoing Oliver Wendell Holmes, Noam Chomsky argues: "If you're in favour of free speech, then you're in favour of freedom of speech precisely for views you despise." It is also widely accepted that cartoons that don't give offence to some section of the population are generally effective. It is important, nonetheless, to know where to draw the line.

Editorials in much of the British press have been at pains to point out that whereas Jyllands-Posten - and, by extension, Le Soir, Die Welt and all the rest of them - had every right to publish what they did, they were certainly under no obligation to do so. In other words, they ought to have known better. The same could be said of those Muslims whose irrational reaction to what they saw as an unreasonable provocation has facilitated the further demonization of Islam and its adherents.

Sometimes the thoughts and actions of the supposedly ultra-devout hint at a cerebral malfunction. Perhaps that's the sort of idea that provoked the 10th-century freethinking Syrian poet Abu al- Ala al-Maarri to produce the following stanza:

The Jews, the Muslims and the Christians,
They've all got it wrong.
The people of the world only divide into two kinds:
One sort with brains who hold no religion,
The other with religion and no brain.



SOURCEhttp://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=30&ItemID=9681[/IMG]]SOURCE
0 Replies
 
muslim1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 08:28 am
Returning to the topic of the thread : "Why insulting prophet Muhammad?!".

I think it is an insult for the whole of humanity... When the best human character is insulted, when the Man who carried the concerns of people is insulted, when the Messenger of the Creator is insulted then all the humanity must feel insulted.

We will not find a more comprehensive example to follow better than Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings be upon him). This is because God has given him all the experiences that any human being may need. He is the only one on the face of the planet whom you can follow in every field of your life, unlike others who may succeed in one field only.

Indeed, he led a poor and a rich life, he was strong and weak, he lived as a citizen and as a ruler, he strived for peace, yet he was a great conquest leader. If you are rich, you can follow his example when he received money and treasures that would fill the space between two mountains. If you are poor, you can follow him when he tied a stone to his stomach to lessen his sufferings because of starvation. If you are a teacher, you can follow his way of treating his companions, and if you are a student you can follow his example when he received the Revelation from Gabriel (On whom be peace)... He is the only one who was a husband of one woman and of many women, he had children and he witnessed the death of some of them. Everything is there; you can follow him in every aspect of your life.

He was never angry for a personal reason, he never avenged for a personal reason, he has never beaten a woman, he has never broken a promise, and he never betrayed or lied.


May the peace and blessings of God be upon Muhammad, His last and final Messenger.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 08:32 am
muslim1 wrote:
Returning to the topic of the thread : "Why insulting the prophet Muhammad?!".

I think it is an insult for the whole of humanity... When the best human character is insulted, when the Man who carried the concerns of people is insulted, when the Messenger of the Creator is insulted then all the humanity must feel insulted.



That bastard Mohammed was an illiterate sponge, who lived off the income of widows he married, and who married and matrimonially raped a nine-year-old girl. That sonofabitch certainly has no claim to be "the best human character," and i personally am insulted that anyone would make such a stupid claim.
0 Replies
 
 

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