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Why insulting prophet Muhammad?!

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 07:42 pm
I was writing this here, the other time:

nimh wrote:
Quickie answer...

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
You can change your religion like you can change your clothes.

This, unfortunately, is just not true. Witness the painful, drawn-out process of dis-attachment to religion (any organised religion) by those who did step away from it - and often at the cost of bitter family conflict, too.

For those who do not go through troubled spiritual disengagement or are simply not willing to take on the costs, their religion is very much a given - something you are simply born into.

As such, slandering or insulting people on the basis of their religious adherence is, in my opinion, comparable to doing so on the basis of someone's race.


In another thread, new poster Mans put it in a more direct way:

mans wrote:
i don't think people should speak badly to a person if they don't like that religion, because people are born into it, and if they change religions they are often frowned upon, and disinherited.
i know that would happen to me if i changed.
(just a random comment Smile )
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 07:47 pm
So, you would let them off with no explanations, no rationale... Just let them taut a religion and cram it down your throat because daddy might cut them out of a will if they don't?

Please don't try to say you'd respect a religion based on familial isolation.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 07:48 pm
taut? word find? sounds like towt...
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mans
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 07:50 pm
i'm not implying that - i am stating that often that is the case. it may be sad to hear, but often it is true - you always hear of cases where a Christian can't marry a muslim because of family reasons. Family seems to dominate many peoples lives.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 07:53 pm
mans--

I was really talking to nimh. I don't have a history wiht you, so I didn't have any expactations of how you feel about this--but he is one who likes people to have to at least explain in a rational way, how they came to their beliefs.

I don't think he, or many here, would accept "because my parents told me I had to."

At least they wouldn't accept that from Christians...
0 Replies
 
mans
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 07:55 pm
oh, good. thankyou Smile
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 08:03 pm
Time for a new bunch of news summaries - they're not exactly hot off the press, but there you go:


(My) summary:

Quote:
2006/02/21 · Angus Reid Global Scan

Many Swiss believe a Danish newspaper was wrong to publish drawings depicting Muslim prophet Mohammed, according to a new poll. 60% of respondents believe the Jyllands-Posten was wrong; 30% think it was right. Meanwhile, three organizations - including Switzerland's UN Watch - urged the UN to reject an attempt of at least 56 nations to include a special reference on "actions against religions, prophets and beliefs" into the charter of the new UN human rights council.



(My) summary:

Quote:
2006/02/19 · BBC News

The BBC News website outlines key events in the escalating row over the publication of cartoons satirising the Prophet Muhammad.



(My) summary:

Quote:
2006/02/18 · United Press International

A joint Spanish-Turkish initiative backed by the UN, the Alliance for Civilization, is mentioned as a possible forum for restoring calm between Europe and the Islamic world following the Mohammed cartoon debacle. The idea was taken up at an EU meeting in which the Austrian Foreign Minister brought together senior Danish officials and leading Muslim representatives to discuss ways of reducing the current tension. Just what the Alliance's role would be is not clear, but observers said it could turn out to be the right initiative at the right time. Its "high level group" is due to meet in Doha later this month.

nimh-face: <sceptical>


(My) summary:

Quote:
2006/02/17 · Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe

The first regular report in 2006 by the OSCE Representative on Freedom of the Media, Miklós Haraszti, deals with current media freedom issues in the OSCE region, including an analysis of the recent cartoon controversy. "The debate should not pit freedom of speech against more respect and more care. Enhanced awareness of Muslim culture, and better responsiveness to global imperatives in the editorial work, should come as an addendum to free speech, not as a restriction on it," the report points out.



(My) summary:

Quote:
2006/02/16 · Washington Post

The publication of a dozen cartoons on a page inside a Danish newspaper has transformed into a global conflagration. It has been a 21st-century battle, a conflict steeped in decades of grievances, but propelled forward by a digitally interconnected world. It has yielded a rare moment of empowerment among Muslims who have felt besieged, but it's also been replete with unintended consequences. Protests have erupted in three continents, and given the moral certainty pronounced by each party, some in the middle feel forced to take sides. This is the story of how it all unfolded.

nimh-face: <nodding>


(My) summary:

Quote:
2006/02/16 · Angus Reid Global Scan

Many adults in Britain see no problem with the cartoons depicting Muslim prophet Mohammed, according to a poll by YouGov. 56% believe it was right to publish the drawings in the interests of freedom of speech, while 29% believe they should never have been published.



(My) summary:

Quote:
2006/02/16 · Angus Reid Global Scan

Many adults in the U.S. believe some media outlets made a mistake in publishing cartoons depicting Muslim prophet Mohammed, according to a Gallup poll. 61% of respondents believe certain European newspapers acted irresponsibly. But 57% did also say that the U.S. news media have an obligation to show controversial items that are newsworthy even if they may offend the religious views of some people.



(My) summary:

Quote:
2006/02/16 · CBS News

Pope Benedict XVI expressed support for peaceful demonstrations in the Muslim world over the Prophet Muhammad caricatures published in Europe, the Lebanese prime minister said after a private meeting at the Vatican. The Vatican has previously said the cartoons represented an "unacceptable provocation," and the right to freedom of expression "cannot entail the right to offend the religious sentiment of believers."



(My) summary:

Quote:
2006/02/10 · WACC News Blog

The President of SIGNIS (The World Catholic Association for Communication) today condemned the publication of the cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad which were published recently in the Danish newspaper, Jyllands Posten. In a statement on behalf of SIGNIS he added, however, that the 'provocation of the cartoons does not justify the violence and fanaticism of some of those who have protested against them'.
0 Replies
 
mans
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 08:08 pm
wow, so many cartoons gone wrong!
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 08:10 pm
Lash wrote:
So, you would let them off with no explanations, no rationale... Just let them taut a religion and cram it down your throat because daddy might cut them out of a will if they don't?

Ehm, no, I dont think that bears much relation to what I just said, no.

Lash wrote:
I don't think he, or many here, would accept "because my parents told me I had to."

At least they wouldn't accept that from Christians...

I think the argument I was taking issue with there is the one I quoted. That "You can change your religion like you can change your clothes."

That was in the context of the issue of the British proposed law against religious hate speech. The argument that you can just go ahead saying whatever hateful and offensive stuff as long as its based on religion because, "hey, they could always just snap out of it right, and then they wouldnt be among those insulted anymore?" just doesnt work for me. Because it's not exactly like that, is it?
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 08:38 pm
Didn't I read here somewhere that religion was so freely attacked because it is a choice?

It IS still a choice....?
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 09:09 pm
Nimh,

No, I don't think it's just like that at all. Sure don't think anyone should be attacked for their religious beliefs at all. Whether it is a choice or not shouldn't enter into the equation IMO.
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mans
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 10:19 pm
i think it's okay to disagree with a religion, but not to totally be rude and unreasonable about it.
0 Replies
 
mans
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 10:20 pm
we should be allowed to question others religions in a kind way
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 11:39 pm
Lash wrote:
Didn't I read here somewhere that religion was so freely attacked because it is a choice?

It IS still a choice....?
Yes and no. In our country; it most certainly is a choice... but there's been no shortage of people tortured and slaughtered let alone disowned or ridiculed for making the wrong choice in some places. Even here, churches have a crazy habit of combusting compared to other buildings in their vicinity. Before one passes it off as just a choice; I think the level of conditioning towards that choice needs to be considered. I'm spitting hairs here, really, because my personal belief is that Freedom of expression trumps any and everyone's right to not be offended, no matter how hateful or unpopular the speech may be. At the same time; I don't think it at all accurate or even reasonable to suggest that one can change his religion as easy as his cloths. I did… but that doesn't mean everyone can.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Mar, 2006 06:54 am
MOAN wrote:
No, I don't think it's just like that at all. Sure don't think anyone should be attacked for their religious beliefs at all. Whether it is a choice or not shouldn't enter into the equation IMO.


You consider any criticism of your imaginary friend superstition to be a personal attack. This is just more special pleading. Your criterion is such that no criticism could ever be offered of your loony beliefs. It just ain'ta gonna happen . . . get over it . . .
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Mar, 2006 09:12 am
mans wrote:
i think it's okay to disagree with a religion, but not to totally be rude and unreasonable about it.
Yeah, but if the religion guy is fixin' to blow him and me up. I'd smack him silly.

Actually, YOU smack him silly. I'm gettin the h--- outta here!
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Mar, 2006 09:19 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Even here, churches have a crazy habit of combusting compared to other buildings in their vicinity.


Yes, but from what I've read it's only been Baptist churches as of late. By the way, has any progress been made in that case?

Quote:
Before one passes it off as just a choice; I think the level of conditioning towards that choice needs to be considered. I'm spitting hairs here, really, because my personal belief is that Freedom of expression trumps any and everyone's right to not be offended, no matter how hateful or unpopular the speech may be. At the same time; I don't think it at all accurate or even reasonable to suggest that one can change his religion as easy as his cloths. I did… but that doesn't mean everyone can.


Well, in some ways, religion isn't really a choice. Upbringing has a lot to do with it, you know.

But I think you're right. People can change religion.

Take the UK, for example. There's that law that states that public schools must provide children with morning worship and teach them Christianity. It's not very well enforced or carried out, but just look at how many people continue to go to church after they leave to school. Not many, though many still regard themselves as Christians even afterwards...

So, I'm guessing, upbringing does kinda negate choice, don't you think?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Mar, 2006 09:50 am
Can we actually choose what we believe? Or we believe what we believe? Many of us will come to believe differently on any given subject/issue/concept/tenet etc. when different or additional information becomes available--few adults believe in Santa Claus any more while little children may believe passionately for instance. It is not uncommon for a religious believer to chuck his/her faith in favor of non belief, and it is not uncommon for the nonbeliever to become a believer. But I'm not sure any of what we believe is a choice.

In the case of a religion that teaches hate, deception, and violence, and given no opportunity to provide better information, we really are dealing with fanatics.

I do not, however, believe we can excuse anybody for acting unlawfully just because they have squirrly beliefs. None of us may be able to change what we believe, but we sure as heck can choose how we will behave.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Mar, 2006 10:11 am
Foxfyre,

I was sitting here thinking about your not being sure any of what we believe is a choice. Can we explore that idea just a bit, if it's not getting off topic? If it is, just say so and we can either do it private or start a thread?

Do you mean it's not a conscious choice? I know that when I hear something I do one of three things: 1) I don't believe it; 2) I do believe it; or 3) I don't know if I believe it or not. In the case of my Christian beliefs, when I heard and believed, it kind of just happened. Make sense?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Mar, 2006 10:53 am
I think we can deceive ourselves and/or pretend, MommaAngel. We can work really hard to convince ourselves of just about anything.

But in the end we don't choose to think a hot stove is hot. We KNOW it is. We are believers about that. We don't choose to think murdering innocent women and children is a bad thing. We KNOW it is. We are believers about that.

We don't choose to think a person is nice, we know it. We don't choose to think a jerk is a jerk. We know it.

And I think in matters of religion it is pretty much the same. We can say we believe in God, but saying and believing are two different things. People of faith believe and each can say why. Those without certainty don't.

At least that's my belief. Smile
0 Replies
 
 

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