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Why insulting prophet Muhammad?!

 
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 09:56 am
re the Islamism/Protestantism, I was referring to the structural nature of these "religions" both having near zero coherent/consistent theology. The nature of american protestantism is one of very individual as well as varied "interpretations" of scripture which is quite similar to Islamism. Just my observation.
0 Replies
 
chris2a
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 09:59 am
Re: Why insulting prophet Muhammad?!
PPatience wrote:
We, Muslims, respect Jesus and all other prophets. It is blasphemous to insult any prophet! If a Muslim dishonored a prophet, he will go to hell FOREVER!!
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 10:04 am
Anon -- I don't deny that there exist Southern Baptist preachers who sound like Al Queda. I trust you can find ample evidence of them. That is not my point. My point is that the first step towards discussing this issue sanely is to recognize that all Muslims are not the same, just as all Southern Babtists are not the same. There is no such thing as "the" Southern Babtists -- at least not in a specific enough sense to say much of interest about them. Likewise there is no such thing as "the" Islam. Hence my objection against over-generalizing.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 10:06 am
Thomas wrote:
Anon -- I don't deny that there exist Southern Baptist preachers who sound like Al Queda. I trust you can find ample evidence of them. That is not my point. My point is that the first step towards discussing this issue sanely is to recognize that all Muslims are not the same, just as all Southern Babtists are not the same. There is no such thing as "the" Southern Babtists -- at least not in a specific enough sense to say much of interest about them. Likewise there is no such thing as "the" Islam. Hence my objection against over-generalizing.

Which was my point about the similarites.
0 Replies
 
chris2a
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 10:13 am
Re: Why insulting prophet Muhammad?!
PPatience wrote:
If a Muslim dishonored a prophet, he will go to hell FOREVER!!

Strange. From the intensity of your rage, it seems you are already there.

It is rather interesting as to how the instinct for survival in the animal kingdom has evolved into this complex, chaotic, and convoluted belief system in Homo Sapiens that has everyone scrambling to justify unwarranted violence.
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Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 10:16 am
Thomas wrote:
Anon -- I don't deny that there exist Southern Baptist preachers who sound like Al Queda. I trust you can find ample evidence of them. That is not my point. My point is that the first step towards discussing this issue sanely is to recognize that all Muslims are not the same, just as all Southern Babtists are not the same. There is no such thing as "the" Southern Babtists -- at least not in a specific enough sense to say much of interest about them. Likewise there is no such thing as "the" Islam. Hence my objection against over-generalizing.


I do agree with you in terms of over-generalizing and painting with too much of a "wide brush" so to speak. I can tell you though, after being one several years, that the Southern Baptists are much more inclined to excessive fire and brimstone style preaching and thinking. They are much more severe than most "Christian" churches and tend to be more radical then the rest.

Anon
0 Replies
 
Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 10:26 am
Cliff Hanger wrote:
Quote:


Look, it is an issue of freedom of speech, but as a matter of taste and kindness, even taking the higher road-- it shows more restraint to not publish them. Wwhen France decided to join in support of Denmark after they banned any kind of dress that indicates religious affiliation, then yes, that is superiority, they crossed the line.


Talk to the fanatics re. taste and kindness.

When you say that they banned any kind of dress that indicates religious affiliation, you do know that they can wear this sort of stuff pretty much on a day to day basis, and are only restricted from wearing anything religious in certain places, don't you?....and that it applies to ALL religions, not just the one that gets upset about one thing or another, on a daily basis?

France has strictly separated church from state since their revolution.

I see it as an attempt to make sure that their children are brought up being the same as one another, free from any indoctrination, at least during the time they spend at school.
What happens when they get home is another matter.

France wants its people to be French first, and whatever religious faith second. The theory is good, but banning the divisive religious insignia and apparel, is possibly not the best way to go about it.

I will give all credit to France, for at least trying to maintain their traditions, and their way of life. It is through the cancer of divisive religious dogma, that much of the unrest occurs.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 10:32 am
Actually, it's rather quiet in England compared to e.g. Afghanistan:


Several hundred Afghan protestors demonstrating against the publication of caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad in Danish, Norwegian and other European papers stormed a NATO ISAF peacekeeping base near Maymana in northwest Afghanistan manned by Norwegian troops Tuesday. Four protestors were killed and 18 were wounded after the troops opened fire. The Norwegians had previously used tear gas in an unsuccessful attempt to break up the crowd.

A NATO spokesman said that "ISAF is operating under difficult circumstances and is exercising the fullest possible restraint. Reinforcements have been sent."

The Norwegian Defense Ministry says that British reinforcements have now arrived and five injured Norwegian personnel have been medevaced by helicopter.

The Norwegian Defense Ministry is providing rolling updates on the situation ... unfortunately in Norwegian only.
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 10:33 am
Momma Angel wrote:
Anon,

Do you have any links to those articles? I would like to read them if you do. Thank you.


http://www.vindy.com/print/280658167387180.shtml

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=15315

http://www.hvk.org/articles/0602/99.html

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/a/2002/06/20/national1406EDT0697.DTL



Thomas

Again, I agree with your remark about over-generalization. I also realize this statement refers to a hundred years ago, however, it does show that the Southern Baptists are more radical than most.

http://www.vindy.com/print/280658167387180.shtml

Quote:
There are certainly fanatics in most religions, those willing to kill or be killed for what they believe in. And few religions are without elements in their history of which they cannot now be proud. After all, more than 100 years ago, Southern Baptists were instrumental in the founding of the Ku Klux Klan.



Anon
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 10:46 am
Anon,

Thank you for the links. I think I am really beginning to understand exactly why the Bible tells us to let the Word of God stand. It seems that when commentary is added to it, that's where the trouble begins. And, I hate to admit it, but I am guilty of adding my own commentary at times.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 10:51 am
Quote:
Mohler also noted, "Telling persons that they are lost and in desperate need of the Savior is not hatred, but the most loving message any human could speak to another."

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=15315

Heh, heh, I wonder how loving he would perceive being told how lost he is?
0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 10:57 am
I would imagine that if he is secure and confidant in his faith, it would matter not to him how often he was told he was lost. Just as someone who is confidant and secure in their belief that there is no god, or that Allah is their god, or of whatever faith should have no problem being told by someone of another faith that they are lost. Of course, maybe I am being just a bit too reasonable.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 11:02 am
The question was not, would it matter to him. It was "how loving would he perceive it?".
0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 11:12 am
Pardon my mistake Mesquite.

As to how loving he would see it, that I guess would depend. If a Muslim who truly believes following Allah is the only way to paradise were to tell me that, I personally would not take offense, since I could understand his zeal in wanting me to experience the paradise he believes in. After all, if he thought I was not "lost", then why even care whether I converted or not?

However, I can understand how someone would perceive his phrasing his defense of his statement that way as not being loving.
0 Replies
 
Cliff Hanger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 11:39 am
Lord Ellpus wrote:
Cliff Hanger wrote:
Quote:


Look, it is an issue of freedom of speech, but as a matter of taste and kindness, even taking the higher road-- it shows more restraint to not publish them. Wwhen France decided to join in support of Denmark after they banned any kind of dress that indicates religious affiliation, then yes, that is superiority, they crossed the line.


Talk to the fanatics re. taste and kindness.

When you say that they banned any kind of dress that indicates religious affiliation, you do know that they can wear this sort of stuff pretty much on a day to day basis, and are only restricted from wearing anything religious in certain places, don't you?....and that it applies to ALL religions, not just the one that gets upset about one thing or another, on a daily basis?

France has strictly separated church from state since their revolution.

I see it as an attempt to make sure that their children are brought up being the same as one another, free from any indoctrination, at least during the time they spend at school.
What happens when they get home is another matter.

France wants its people to be French first, and whatever religious faith second. The theory is good, but banning the divisive religious insignia and apparel, is possibly not the best way to go about it.

I will give all credit to France, for at least trying to maintain their traditions, and their way of life. It is through the cancer of divisive religious dogma, that much of the unrest occurs.


First of all, I am no fan of religious dogma. If the French are so interested in maintaining their precious and often snotty culture then they ought not be throwing stones themselves.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 11:49 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
nimh wrote:
No matter how stupid and outrageous (and to us, ununderstandable) the reaction to this affair in the Muslim world has been, it's definitely also sure that the Jyllands Posten folks were no innocent lambs ... they were out to provoke, and that in a country, governed by a coalition relying on the far right, where Muslims and immigrants have already be taking blow after blow...

And the people who riot and kill those who don't agree with them? Okay with you?

Brandon obviously cant or doesnt bother to read ... or doesnt understand what "No matter how stupid and outrageous (and to us, ununderstandable) the reaction to this affair in the Muslim world has been" means, exactly.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 11:51 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
nimh wrote:

No matter how stupid and outrageous (and to us, ununderstandable) the reaction to this affair in the Muslim world has been, it's definitely also sure that the Jyllands Posten folks were no innocent lambs ... they were out to provoke, and that in a country, governed by a coalition relying on the far right, where Muslims and immigrants have already be taking blow after blow...


Quote:
The Danish newspaper that originally published the cartoons [Jyllands Posten] commissioned them after the author of a book about Islam said he was unable to find a single person willing to provide images of the Prophet.

The newspaper's culture editor, Flemming Rose, says he did not ask the illustrators to draw satirical caricatures of Muhammad. He asked them to draw the Prophet as they saw him.

Rose has insisted that there is a long Danish tradition of biting satire with no taboos, and that Muhammad and Islam are being treated no differently to other religions.
source: BBC

The Jylland-Posten's editors have also said they wanted to "test" the limits of free speech ... they knew they were provoking, and that in a country where there hasn't exactly been a lack of provocation towards the small Muslim minority.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 11:57 am
Momma Angel wrote:
I think I am really beginning to understand exactly why the Bible tells us to let the Word of God stand. It seems that when commentary is added to it, that's where the trouble begins.

Word.
0 Replies
 
Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 12:02 pm
Cliff Hanger wrote:


First of all, I am no fan of religious dogma. If the French are so interested in maintaining their precious and often snotty culture then they ought not be throwing stones themselves.


By throwing stones, you mean the fact that they published the cartoons? or that they have a law restricting religious baubles in certain places?

The democratically elected French government have every right to pass any law that they see fit.
If the populace doesn't like it, they either vote them out, or challenge that law at the European parliament.

As far as often being precious and snotty I am in full agreement with you, but then again, France is a far better place to live than Iran IMO.
Whatever your religion.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 12:12 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Moishe3rd,

Perhaps they felt it unwise to publish the cartoons in the US because they felt it might just add fuel to the fire that is raging?

Perhaps they felt it unwise because if those cartoons have already caused this much trouble it could be an indication of what may happen and the safety of the citizens is a bit more important than some newspaper publishing something that is obviously been proven to be, at the very least, provocative.

Perhapse they felt it unwise because it is the right thing to do?


dyslexia wrote:
I totally disagree with your post MA, whenever freedom of expression is limited, society suffers. An example might be when the KKK planned a march in Chicago some years ago the ACLU defended the KKK on just such grounds. Good taste does not equal "the right thing to do."


I agree with MA here, and I suggest that Dys misses the point.

The point is not to "limit the freedom of expression", which would imply a government or another overarching body prohibiting the media from expressing something. The point is the decision that the media are themselves free to make, and whether that decisions should always necessarily be to "run it". Newspapers make this decision all the time, whether it is about showing graphic pictures or running offensive columns or whatever, its not like some kind of specific exception is asked for.

We went through this argument earlier in the thread, when Lash (I think) said that "freedom of expression" was the excuse for Jyllands-Posten to run the cartoons. Either Soz or FreeDuck, and I, replied that, no: freedom of expression merely gave the newspaper the opportunity to run the cartoons; it didn't mean they had to.

Legality isn't always the end to the question of what one should or shouldn't do. That which is (reasonably) illegal, you shouldnt do, fine. But not everything you can legally do is something you should do.

I think that, in a society, once you realise that you're in the same boat and you'll have to live with each other, you have to all take some social responsibility. For one, to not needlessly provoke or insult others, even if it would be legal to do so.

The situation, both in Denmark and in the Middle East, was already highly tense, and there were already a bunch of highly urgent, serious matters to address and solve. To, at that point in time, throw in a provocation just for the sake of it seems irresponsible. Was the non-depiction of Mohammed really such a salient, urgent social or political issue? Was it really a problematic issue at all?

The only motivation I see for Jylland-Posten to orginally have published the cartoons was simply to make a point, and that seems awfully self-serving considering the predictable, enormous backlash it would trigger.

I dont know what to think of newspapers reprinting the cartoons now. I think it was good that, once the Danish journalists and cartoonists were threatened, once Denmark was boycotted and demonstrators called for a clampdown on the media in question, it was good that French and other newspapers around Europe reprinted the cartoons by ways of statement. Because by then something really serious was involved: resisting the call for governments to clamp down on media. But it should definitely not become a habit, and that point has now also already been made, so what use would it further serve to republish them again and again, when you know there's a lot of people who are genuinely offended by it?

It is a matter of good taste, yes, of mere politeness to your fellow-citizen. Even if it's legal to do so, you shouldnt go out of your way to offend people (and yes, LE, of course that goes even more for the London demonstrators). Not unless you have a real good, urgent reason to do so, and I dont think that a childrens book writer's problem in finding an illustrator immediately counts as such.
0 Replies
 
 

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