2
   

Experts Claim Official 9-11 Story is a Hoax ! FINALLY!

 
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Feb, 2006 06:21 pm
Well I hope so -- those two "experts" are not impressing me. Go to the link for the NOVA special and see the list of expert advisors on that program. Hard to ignore.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Feb, 2006 06:22 pm
[NOTES: Kevin R. Ryan is Site Manager of the Environmental Health Laboratories at South Bend, Indiana (company site at www.ehl.cc). EHL is a division of Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. (company site at www.ul.com). Frank Gayle is Deputy Chief of the Metallurgy Division, Material Science and Engineering Laboratory, at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST). Gayle heads the "NIST and the World Trade Center" project, see wtc.nist.gov. Dr. Gayle's biography is at wtc.nist.gov/pi/wtc_profiles.asp?lastname=gayle. The following text is taken from an e-mail forward, from Ryan to David Ray Griffin. Emphases are ours. - 911Truth.org]


---------------

From: Kevin R Ryan/SBN/ULI
To: [email protected]
Date: 11/11/2004
Dr. Gayle,

Having recently reviewed your team's report of 10/19/04, I felt the need to contact you directly.

As I'm sure you know, the company I work for certified the steel components used in the construction of the WTC buildings. In requesting information from both our CEO and Fire Protection business manager last year, I learned that they did not agree on the essential aspects of the story, except for one thing - that the samples we certified met all requirements. They suggested we all be patient and understand that UL was working with your team, and that tests would continue through this year. I'm aware of UL's attempts to help, including performing tests on models of the floor assemblies. But the results of these tests appear to indicate that the buildings should have easily withstood the thermal stress caused by pools of burning jet fuel.

There continues to be a number of "experts" making public claims about how the WTC buildings fell. One such person, Dr. Hyman Brown from the WTC construction crew, claims that the buildings collapsed due to fires at 2000F melting the steel (1). He states "What caused the building to collapse is the airplane fuel . . . burning at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. The steel in that five-floor area melts." Additionally, the newspaper that quotes him says "Just-released preliminary findings from a National Institute of Standards and Technology study of the World Trade Center collapse support Brown's theory."

We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119. The time temperature curves for this standard require the samples to be exposed to temperatures around 2000F for several hours. And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications. Additionally, I think we can all agree that even un-fireproofed steel will not melt until reaching red-hot temperatures of nearly 3000F (2). Why Dr. Brown would imply that 2000F would melt the high-grade steel used in those buildings makes no sense at all.

The results of your recently published metallurgical tests seem to clear things up (3), and support your team's August 2003 update as detailed by the Associated Press (4), in which you were ready to "rule out weak steel as a contributing factor in the collapse". The evaluation of paint deformation and spheroidization seem very straightforward, and you noted that the samples available were adequate for the investigation. Your comments suggest that the steel was probably exposed to temperatures of only about 500F (250C), which is what one might expect from a thermodynamic analysis of the situation.

However the summary of the new NIST report seems to ignore your findings, as it suggests that these low temperatures caused exposed bits of the building's steel core to "soften and buckle"(5). Additionally this summary states that the perimeter columns softened, yet your findings make clear that "most perimeter panels (157 of 160) saw no temperature above 250C". To soften steel for the purposes of forging, normally temperatures need to be above 1100C (6). However, this new summary report suggests that much lower temperatures were be able to not only soften the steel in a matter of minutes, but lead to rapid structural collapse.

This story just does not add up. If steel from those buildings did soften or melt, I'm sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind, let alone the briefly burning fires in those towers. That fact should be of great concern to all Americans. Alternatively, the contention that this steel did fail at temperatures around 250C suggests that the majority of deaths on 9/11 were due to a safety-related failure. That suggestion should be of great concern to my company.

There is no question that the events of 9/11 are the emotional driving force behind the War on Terror. And the issue of the WTC collapse is at the crux of the story of 9/11. My feeling is that your metallurgical tests are at the crux of the crux of the crux. Either you can make sense of what really happened to those buildings, and communicate this quickly, or we all face the same destruction and despair that come from global decisions based on disinformation and "chatter".

Thanks for your efforts to determine what happened on that day. You may know that there are a number of other current and former government employees that have risked a great deal to help us to know the truth. I've copied one of these people on this message as a sign of respect and support. I believe your work could also be a nucleus of fact around which the truth, and thereby global peace and justice, can grow again. Please do what you can to quickly eliminate the confusion regarding the ability of jet fuel fires to soften or melt structural steel. http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0411/S00177.htm
0 Replies
 
Magginkat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Feb, 2006 09:19 pm
Bella Dea wrote:
Maggie still didn't answer my question about how all those people are being kept silent.



Bella, I had to go back about to page 8 or 9 to see what question your were waiting on me to answer. Sorry I had to work today... some of us still do that you know.

After reading your post I don't know if I should ROTFLMAO at it or just throw up my hands & give up on the human race. If you are trying to credit me with making that dumb statement you must be smoking or snorting something funny.

Here's your apparent made up comment that led to your inane question aimed at me:


Bella Dea wrote:
I am still laughing at the idea that our deficit is because we have so many people to pay off to keep quiet.

You conspiracy theorists are nuts. Perhaps it was caused by actions that our gov't did or did not take, but to say that they planned it out and the people involved are being bribed to keep quiet....yeah, right.

3 people can keep a secret....if 2 of them are dead.


First of all I don't know where you go the part about the deficit & keeping people quiet. Did you just dream up that garbage?

Then you demand that I answer this crap as though I was the one who said it? Are you competing with george bu$h for nutcase of the year?

Might I suggest that you laugh because you have nothing worthwhile to say? Perhaps like george you have no curiosity about anything & accept the sound bytes fed to you as fact.

I like to question things. That does not make me a conspiracy nut nor does it mean that my questions lead to the correct answers. Only history will determine that.

So far in this past five years us "conspiracy nuts" have an almost perfect record when it comes to what the bu$h thugs are up to.
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Feb, 2006 09:37 pm
Magginkat wrote:
So far in this past five years us "conspiracy nuts" have an almost perfect record when it comes to what the bu$h thugs are up to.


This is very true! We could spend a lot of time on "I told you so" items! The jury is still out on a few of them as well! If I had been a Bush backer at the start, I would probably have committed suicide by now !!

Anon
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Feb, 2006 12:39 am
mags,
The quote in question actually came from parados...

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 21:51 Post: 1829068 -

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Why do you think the US has such a large budget deficit? There were a LOT of people to pay off. We hid the payoffs by pretending to invade Iraq. I don't know how we are going to pay off all the people that are in on that conspiracy. Oh wait, That's right we have all the oil money from Iraq after our pretend invasion.


In your defense,even you arent silly enough to believe this crap,,,I hope.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Feb, 2006 12:52 am
Respectfully Magginkat, may I suggest you address the more pertinent questions by posters who've gone well out of their way to show you the error in your beliefs (despite agreeing with the more coherent of your beliefs of Bush). Otherwise, you'll likely become a read-past-poster for those who share your ideology as well as those of us who don't. Seriously, this may be your last shot at alliance with the most intelligent folks of your genre.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Feb, 2006 02:22 am
It is funny the reaction you get from observing information and considering what is possible. The names and faces change but their bullsh!t is always the same. People choose too believe rather then to know. What you believe and what you know are not the same thing.

Tico uses www.disinfo.com . I remember when they were just publishing books, They've grown. Their a whacko conspiracy outfit. I wonder if he would consider the other info you can get through the guys at disinformation or if he picks and chooses.

Nimh mentions that global warming is scientifically proven. I knew that when I put it down as conspiracy theories of the past. People called me a whacko conspiracy theory, tree hugging idiot then too. Yet global warming was based on scientific evidence. What if people were able to except global warming as the truth back then. Would we be far ahead of the game today? How about peak oil production?

If I listened to everybody that told me I was stupid for looking at these things I would be as stupid as them or as ignorant. Many of these theories are excepted now. I don't know what happened to the skeptics. Some how they just disappear. Laughing

P.S. Did we walk on the moon? I heard we didn't have the technology to make a suite that could withstand the radiation at that time? Just kidding.....I think.
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Feb, 2006 07:43 am
Magginkat wrote:
Bella Dea wrote:
Maggie still didn't answer my question about how all those people are being kept silent.



Bella, I had to go back about to page 8 or 9 to see what question your were waiting on me to answer. Sorry I had to work today... some of us still do that you know.

After reading your post I don't know if I should ROTFLMAO at it or just throw up my hands & give up on the human race. If you are trying to credit me with making that dumb statement you must be smoking or snorting something funny.

Here's your apparent made up comment that led to your inane question aimed at me:


Bella Dea wrote:
I am still laughing at the idea that our deficit is because we have so many people to pay off to keep quiet.

You conspiracy theorists are nuts. Perhaps it was caused by actions that our gov't did or did not take, but to say that they planned it out and the people involved are being bribed to keep quiet....yeah, right.

3 people can keep a secret....if 2 of them are dead.


First of all I don't know where you go the part about the deficit & keeping people quiet. Did you just dream up that garbage?

Then you demand that I answer this crap as though I was the one who said it? Are you competing with george bu$h for nutcase of the year?

Might I suggest that you laugh because you have nothing worthwhile to say? Perhaps like george you have no curiosity about anything & accept the sound bytes fed to you as fact.

I like to question things. That does not make me a conspiracy nut nor does it mean that my questions lead to the correct answers. Only history will determine that.

So far in this past five years us "conspiracy nuts" have an almost perfect record when it comes to what the bu$h thugs are up to.


Uh no, that's not the question. So retract your nasty claws and pay attention.

I was asking the whole lot of you, but since no one bothered to read anything, no one answered.

Quote:
I don't trust the gov't farther than I can throw the White House, but how would they pull off something this big? Realistically, how could all those people be silenced? If you can give me an answer to that, I'll consider this conversation on conspiracy vs. bad luck.


You do believe that this was all a set up, no?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Feb, 2006 07:46 am
amigo said
Quote:
It is funny the reaction you get from observing information and considering what is possible. The names and faces change but their bullsh!t is always the same. People choose too believe rather then to know. What you believe and what you know are not the same thing.


Theres a complete order-of-magnitude difference between considering a possibility and latching on to it like a remora and basing your life on it.
Im satisfied with the forensic data and the analyses of the attack.
Im considered an "expert in geophysics" so Ive seen the seismic records that Disinfo.com has posted (and the results are that disinfo was lying, just flat lying) The "doctoring"of the seismic records were heavily critcized by the "owners" of the data at Lamont observatory. They were soundly ridiculing the "fools and fanatics" who will go to all lengths to make this **** up.

Whenever anything of a disaster nature occurs, its always easy to come up with inane questions that, when viewed with laymans understanding, appear valid.
"Why was there such a small hole in the Pentagon?" There wasnt, there was over a 270 foot wide swath that collapsed in the facade, what everyone concentrated on was the hole left by the nose gear in the third ring of the building(remember the plane had already plowed through 2 outer rings of building before making that hole. Debris was found all over the place and is still in a hangar. (PS it was the commercial jet cause they found the sections with the N numbers. The security cameras showed the jet plowing into the building by sliding on its stomach into the facade.

There were NO explosions on WTC from cutter chrges because no explosive rsidues were detected (these instruments can pick up DNT and RDX down to ppb levels. No evidence of any "weakening of trusses" was found or even noted

The NTIS people who are supporting the theory must be trying to sell books(Its not hard to believe that people do really stupid stuff for money)
No its you and magginkat whove latched onto a conspiracy and you havent even bothered to look at the alternatives. Thats how the seeds of fanaticism are sown.

Magginkat is a bit on the "scary side" > while many of us are also not fans of Bush and his puppetmaster, we dont have any evidence that your giant conspiracy has any merit at all.He has started a war illegally and based on false pretenses but the connection between him and this event is total fabrication, cause the best you have is a lot of data thats actually made up(like the seismic records) Ill never believe any of your crowd based on that alone.

The process of cooking up a web site is easy. When something is on a print roll and looks like a professional job, I always wonder about who vetted the stuff and why. The fact that Tico blew your initial stories sources coming from some hysterical conspiracy screamer should give you reasons to pause and re consider the validity of your positions. There will always be yahoos out there who type in caps and ask irrelevant questions and engage in hyperbole. Then when we can show that one or more areas of their data is phony, I would tend to abandon ship.
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Feb, 2006 07:55 am
Magginkat wrote:

Bella, I had to go back about to page 8 or 9 to see what question your were waiting on me to answer. Sorry I had to work today... some of us still do that you know.


You really are a miserable little person, aren't you? You can't even talk in an adult, civil tone. I'd call you what you are but that might get me booted and frankly, you aren't worth it.

Magginkat wrote:

After reading your post I don't know if I should ROTFLMAO at it or just throw up my hands & give up on the human race. If you are trying to credit me with making that dumb statement you must be smoking or snorting something funny.


IT WAS A FUNNY, A JOKE. I was making a sarcastic comment regarding THIS post (noted below), you arrogant piece of work, not about something you wrote. I guess my lack of smilies and big notes saying it was sarcastic really screwed me.

Quote:
AliceInWonderland wrote:
Yep, I'm lying, along with the families of those on the plane, along with the firefighters on the scene, along with the eye witnesses that saw the plane hit the building, along with Boeing (they must be lying about the dimensions of their planes), along with air traffic controllers, crash investigators and all the other hundreds of folks who were on the site. Please tell me how you would get all of those people to go along with a conspiracy.

Parados Wrote in response:
Why do you think the US has such a large budget deficit? There were a LOT of people to pay off. We hid the payoffs by pretending to invade Iraq. I don't know how we are going to pay off all the people that are in on that conspiracy. Oh wait, That's right we have all the oil money from Iraq after our pretend invasion.



If you were paying attention to your discussion, you'd have seen that Parados doesn't believe in your conspiracy theories, as noted here in this post. One you conveniently skipped over, I am sure. Parados, if the above post of yours wasn't suppose to be sarcastic, could you let me know? I will need to correct my previous post.

Quote:
Maggikat,

Bush is an idiot but you are trying to be his equal with pushing this conspiracy theory.

There are engineers whose job it is to do analysis of construction failures. They did so with the WTC. The forensic analysis fits all the facts much better than the conspiracy theories do.

Here is a simple explanation for the non technical
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html


Here is another by a nice Australian engineer that tells why some of your conspiracy claims can't be true.
http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/wtc.shtml
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Feb, 2006 07:58 am
mysteryman wrote:
mags,
The quote in question actually came from parados...

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 21:51 Post: 1829068 -

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Why do you think the US has such a large budget deficit? There were a LOT of people to pay off. We hid the payoffs by pretending to invade Iraq. I don't know how we are going to pay off all the people that are in on that conspiracy. Oh wait, That's right we have all the oil money from Iraq after our pretend invasion.


In your defense,even you arent silly enough to believe this crap,,,I hope.


Thanks...I guess that makes two of us paying attention. :wink:
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Feb, 2006 07:59 am
magginkat said
Quote:

First of all I don't know where you go the part about the deficit & keeping people quiet. Did you just dream up that garbage?

Then you demand that I answer this crap as though I was the one who said it? Are you competing with george bu$h for nutcase of the year?

Might I suggest that you laugh because you have nothing worthwhile to say? Perhaps like george you have no curiosity about anything & accept the sound bytes fed to you as fact.

I like to question things. That does not make me a conspiracy nut nor does it mean that my questions lead to the correct answers. Only history will determine that.

So far in this past five years us "conspiracy nuts" have an almost perfect record when it comes to what the bu$h thugs are up to


Magginkat, your within a select group of conspiracists on this thread. Please dont try to unentangle yourself from the stuff herein. Your arguments are usually prefaced with invective and often cheap shots. We can discuss this rationally or youll be here crying in a wind tunnel cause nobody will give you the time of day.
I believe that your honestly convinced but dont seem to possess the skills to argue without screaming at the top of your lungs and calling names. Lets try to be a bit more rational. Many of us have kept this little thread alive, we can easily pull out and go away and youlld drop to the bottom like a cinder block.
What have you got to say about the data that was made up by the "conspiracists" (Im talking about the Lamont seismic record that was used to support cutter chrges in WTC) thats a faked piece of record that has been time scruched to look like its a sudden shock wave. In reality its a 40 second sweep that shows the building collapsing in a slow rising amplitude, consistant with something breaking up and dropping from the air to the ground. If there were cutter charges, these would be seen as sharp snaps on the record (none there)
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Feb, 2006 01:17 pm
Amigo wrote:
Tico uses www.disinfo.com . I remember when they were just publishing books, They've grown. Their a whacko conspiracy outfit. I wonder if he would consider the other info you can get through the guys at disinformation or if he picks and chooses.


Excuse me, I did not and never have "used" disinfo.com. I pointed out that there were only two places on the Internet (at the time) were I could find the article MK posted.

Quote:
In fact, I can only find the article in two places on the Net: emediawire.com, and disinfo.com (which points to the emediawire.com article).


I "used" google.com to conduct that search. Explain to me how you think I "used" disinfo.com, or ascribed any credibility to anything contained therein.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Feb, 2006 03:45 pm
farmerman, I never read any of Ticos post. I never considered any of the post on this thread. I'm already aware of these arguments (Except for the lying about the seismic records). I changed my mind about the pentagon based on information found elsewhere. I took a long break from the the pentagon story and started running my mouth before I updated myself. I am rational, reasonable and mentally sound. I am also capable of changing my perception and admitting when I am wrong. I am not having a contest with anybody here except myself. The question here is the capacity and sondness of our perception. This thread does not reflect it but my record is strong. I don't have a position on 9/11 except that i'm wating for the next development.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Feb, 2006 03:47 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Amigo wrote:
Tico uses www.disinfo.com . I remember when they were just publishing books, They've grown. Their a whacko conspiracy outfit. I wonder if he would consider the other info you can get through the guys at disinformation or if he picks and chooses.


Excuse me, I did not and never have "used" disinfo.com. I pointed out that there were only two places on the Internet (at the time) were I could find the article MK posted.

Quote:
In fact, I can only find the article in two places on the Net: emediawire.com, and disinfo.com (which points to the emediawire.com article).


I "used" google.com to conduct that search. Explain to me how you think I "used" disinfo.com, or ascribed any credibility to anything contained therein.
what the hell, your right. I need to ignore you fully instead of only half way. It gets me in trouble.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Feb, 2006 05:03 pm
Amigo wrote:
what the hell, your right. I need to ignore you fully instead of only half way. It gets me in trouble.


Would you?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Feb, 2006 05:06 pm
mysteryman wrote:
mags,
The quote in question actually came from parados...

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 21:51 Post: 1829068 -

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Why do you think the US has such a large budget deficit? There were a LOT of people to pay off. We hid the payoffs by pretending to invade Iraq. I don't know how we are going to pay off all the people that are in on that conspiracy. Oh wait, That's right we have all the oil money from Iraq after our pretend invasion.


In your defense,even you arent silly enough to believe this crap,,,I hope.
Wow.. I didn't expect ANYONE to take my satirical statement seriously. But I guess mysteryman isn't just ANYONE.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Feb, 2006 06:33 pm
parados wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
mags,
The quote in question actually came from parados...

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 21:51 Post: 1829068 -

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Why do you think the US has such a large budget deficit? There were a LOT of people to pay off. We hid the payoffs by pretending to invade Iraq. I don't know how we are going to pay off all the people that are in on that conspiracy. Oh wait, That's right we have all the oil money from Iraq after our pretend invasion.


In your defense,even you arent silly enough to believe this crap,,,I hope.
Wow.. I didn't expect ANYONE to take my satirical statement seriously. But I guess mysteryman isn't just ANYONE.


I didnt take it seriously.
I was pointing out to mags who said it.
Someone had challenged her on it,so I was (gasp) defending her.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Feb, 2006 10:37 pm
farmerman wrote:
magginkat said
Quote:

First of all I don't know where you go the part about the deficit & keeping people quiet. Did you just dream up that garbage?

Then you demand that I answer this crap as though I was the one who said it? Are you competing with george bu$h for nutcase of the year?

Might I suggest that you laugh because you have nothing worthwhile to say? Perhaps like george you have no curiosity about anything & accept the sound bytes fed to you as fact.

I like to question things. That does not make me a conspiracy nut nor does it mean that my questions lead to the correct answers. Only history will determine that.

So far in this past five years us "conspiracy nuts" have an almost perfect record when it comes to what the bu$h thugs are up to


Magginkat, your within a select group of conspiracists on this thread. Please dont try to unentangle yourself from the stuff herein. Your arguments are usually prefaced with invective and often cheap shots. We can discuss this rationally or youll be here crying in a wind tunnel cause nobody will give you the time of day.
I believe that your honestly convinced but dont seem to possess the skills to argue without screaming at the top of your lungs and calling names. Lets try to be a bit more rational. Many of us have kept this little thread alive, we can easily pull out and go away and youlld drop to the bottom like a cinder block.
What have you got to say about the data that was made up by the "conspiracists" (Im talking about the Lamont seismic record that was used to support cutter chrges in WTC) thats a faked piece of record that has been time scruched to look like its a sudden shock wave. In reality its a 40 second sweep that shows the building collapsing in a slow rising amplitude, consistant with something breaking up and dropping from the air to the ground. If there were cutter charges, these would be seen as sharp snaps on the record (none there)
farmerman, I'm beginning to believe your presence here is self serving. Are you helping us come to our senses. I your ready to get off the conspiracy theory bus well pull over whenever you want. Or is it invalid when you gone? Alice in wonderland was gone a long time ago. Why do you degrade yourself in our presence any longer then you have too. Why did you ever degrade your self by considering the WTC was a conspiracy anyway? You guys haven't kept this thread you have turned it into a school yard. I have to go can't finish bye
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Feb, 2006 11:27 pm
Amigo wrote:
farmerman, I'm beginning to believe your presence here is self serving. Are you helping us come to our senses. I your ready to get off the conspiracy theory bus well pull over whenever you want. Or is it invalid when you gone? Alice in wonderland was gone a long time ago. Why do you degrade yourself in our presence any longer then you have too. Why did you ever degrade your self by considering the WTC was a conspiracy anyway? You guys haven't kept this thread you have turned it into a school yard. I have to go can't finish bye
Laughing Frankly Farmerman, I've wondered the same myself for pages now. The foil-hat club has made their impervious immunity to reason abundantly clear. 2+2=4, but you'll never convince a stone.
0 Replies
 
 

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