3
   

Bush won't tolerate nuclear Iran

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 06:38 am
Quote:
Thousands would die if US attacked Iran: study
Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:13 AM ET

LONDON (Reuters) - Thousands of military personnel and hundreds of civilians would be killed if the United States launched an air strike on Iran to prevent it developing nuclear arms, a British think tank said in a report released on Monday.

The report by the Oxford Research Group said any bombing of Iran by U.S. forces, or by their Israeli allies, would have to be part of a surprise attack that would inevitably catch many Iranians unprotected and could eventually lead to a lengthy confrontation involving many other countries in the region.

An attack could lead to the closure of the Gulf at the Straits of Hormuz and would probably have a substantial impact on oil prices, as well as spurring new attacks by Muslim radicals on Western interests, the report said.

"A U.S. military attack on Iranian nuclear infrastructure would be the start of a protracted military confrontation that would probably involve Iraq, Israel and Lebanon as well as the United States and Iran, with the possibility of west Gulf States being involved as well," it said.
more
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 06:57 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
I don't think we've asked for anything unreasonable to request they recognize their neighbor's right to exist before we recognize the slim possibility they are now prepared to act like statesmen.


Geeze, might you not want to consider extending that same courtesy to, say, Cuba or Venezuela, or maybe El Salvador or Nicaragua, or ...
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 07:42 am
I don't know if Hamas will go so far as to say definitely that Israel has the right to exist but the group does seem to be softening it's position and that might mean there is room to work with them.

Quote:
Zahar laid out a series of conditions that he said could lead to years of co-existence alongside Israel. He said that if Israel "is ready to give us the national demand to withdraw from the occupied area [in] `67; to release our detainees; to stop their aggression; to make geographic link between Gaza Strip and West Bank, at that time, with assurance from other sides, we are going to accept to establish our independent state at that time, and give us one or two, 10, 15 years time in order to see what is the real intention of Israel after that."


http://www.pforp.net/hamas.hints.truce.1967.asp

We work with other countries that are less than what we would like by diplomacy and negotiating back and forth. What good does it do for peace to not work with Hamas out of just the principle of the thing?
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 07:45 am
JTT wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
I don't think we've asked for anything unreasonable to request they recognize their neighbor's right to exist before we recognize the slim possibility they are now prepared to act like statesmen.


Geeze, might you not want to consider extending that same courtesy to, say, Cuba or Venezuela, or maybe El Salvador or Nicaragua, or ...


Show one statement,from ANY US politician,that has said that any of those countries have no right to exist!!!
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 04:10 pm
old europe wrote:

You're talking about ageing populations, sclerotic governments, and about how "Europe is resigned to a comfortable retirement and decline" - in contrast to what? The United States? We had the discussion of population growth in the US vs Europe before, but I don't think the difference is hardly what you purport it to be.


You raise several valid points here. Americans are, individually, no more exempt from the enervating effects of wealth and comfort than are Europeans or anyone else. However, collectively, we have a decidedly different social and population dynamic at work than does Europe -- and that makes all the difference.

Reproduction among immigrants in this country has always been greater than that of the more comfortable and established in place population. Thus, in the mid to late 19th century, the country was seen to be rapidly becoming Irish, Polish and, later, Italian and Jewish. Subsequent immigration has remained equally varied but differently focused, with Asians and Central Americans dominating new arrivals (legal and extra legal). To some extent the United States has been a social and economic engine fuelled by ambitious and hard-working immigrants. The very competitive features of our society that apparently so discomforts many Europeans are a key part of our attractiveness to immigrants, and, more to the point, our ability to truly assimilate them into an evolving common culture within (generally) a couple of generations. Today's immigrants exhibit similar social and exonomic behaviors to those who preceded them, and there is no reason to believe they will be any less "Americans" than them either.

We are not without our salient faults and failures in this area, the most notable being the long, hard road faced by the children of freed African slaves here. However, overall we are now doing rather well in this area. One can still decide to become an American without extensive imposed preconditions.

With respect to the specific demographic data, even Americans with largely European origins and economic status still out reproduce Europeans by a fairly large margin - female fertility of about 1.98, compared to about 1.4 in southern and eastern Europe, 1.8 in the UK, and almost 1.9 (recently) in France.

I believe the central issue here is the prevailing social and economic dynamic. The Unirted States is internally a far more competitive, optimistic culture than thoise that prevail in Europe, and that shows in our different views of international issues -- such as Iran. (How's that for getting back to the point?)
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 04:18 pm
Finn, it's clear we'll never see eye to eye on the degree of importance 'after-life hopes and fears' play in the mind of the fanatic's foot soldiers. I'm satisfied with your concession that it plays some role. Razor thin difference in your mind, I understand, but I reasonably disagree. Also, IMO, this is only one advantage of the 'Religious Charismatic Fanatic'. Another would be the cross-border organization of fellowship that is pre-assembled so to speak. This could provide the 'Religious Charismatic Fanatic' a head start in his quest for global domination, should he be able to captivate a significant portion of members. Consider how even moderate Muslims are hesitant to openly criticize their more fanatical peers, much the same as Americans are more likely to look past American misdeeds. This cross-border advantage is demonstrated by the widespread mindless mobs going berserk over a friggin cartoon. Man's age old game of divide-and-conquer is more easily accomplished with a pre-existing, borderless, allegiance like that of the Muslim faith. The puppeteers who pull the strings on the more fanatical fools easily lit multiple fuses in multiple countries simultaneously. Here again; we could argue till the cows came home over the degree this advantage plays for the manipulative Man… and again I'd be satisfied that we agree it plays some roll. Whatever the degree of substance these advantages play, they are nonetheless advantages. IMHO, dangerous ones at that. When a significant percentage of 1.5 billion people even empathize with the barbarous actions of the fanatical few; every factor of this shared empathy is worthy of substantial consideration.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 06:31 pm
Happy Valentine's Day........from Ahmadiwacko
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 07:21 pm
Whoodathunkit.....Israel in NATO!

Quote:
NATO, Israel Draw Closer

Mideast Tumult Forces Rethinking
Of Alliances, but Hurdles Loom

February 14, 2006; Page A6

The idea is as logical as it is radical: The notion of Israeli membership in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization is bubbling to the surface after recent events that have crystallized the threats to Israel and how common they are to the dangers confronting the U.S. and Europe.

Iran's accelerated race to develop nuclear weapons, the electoral triumph of Hamas -- the Palestinian group committed to destroying Israel -- and the violent reaction to Danish cartoons depicting Muhammad have galvanized those who want the West to respond firmly and visibly to an escalating threat from Islamist extremism.

The majority of NATO's 26 members still firmly opposes Israeli membership as too polarizing both within the organization and among Mideast players. Belgium and France, for example, are far from ready for territorial defense of Tel Aviv. For their part, Israeli leaders, after years of self-reliance, are divided on whether to trust any security guarantee other than their own -- particularly if it comes from Europeans, whom Israelis consider traditionally pro-Arab and historically anti-Semitic.

Yet membership or not, three recent developments are driving an ever-closer relationship between the world's mightiest and most successful security organization and the Mideast's most threatened and militarily capable country. By this spring, senior alliance officials say, Israel is likely to sign a historic Individual Cooperation Program with NATO encompassing commitments that include counterterrorist-intelligence gathering, military cooperation and civil-emergency planning.

What's driving the shift:

To paraphrase Willie Sutton on why he robbed banks -- "because that's where the money is" -- NATO is focusing increasingly on the Mideast because that's where the problems are. Alliance members increasingly see the threat as civilizational rather than territorial, and although Israeli membership isn't in the cards yet, they are warming to the idea of closer institutional ties with democratic partners outside of Europe such as Australia, Japan and Israel.

Under the radar, Israel has deepened its relationship with NATO over the past year after Jaap de Hoop Scheffer's first visit by a NATO secretary general to Israel last February. It participated in three military exercises in 2005 and has provided valuable intelligence to Operation Active Endeavor, the aim of which is to block delivery of missiles and weapons of mass destruction to terrorist-supporting countries such as Iran, Syria and North Korea. This year, Israel will increase its participation in the operation and place a liaison officer at NATO's naval headquarters in Naples, Italy.

The cartoon controversy has been a wake-up call to Europeans, who increasingly view the danger from Islamists to be much broader than an anti-U.S. phenomenon. Europeans are coming to see the threat as geographically closer to them than to the U.S. and domestically more dangerous because of extremists within their unintegrated minority populations.

The growing possibility of a showdown with Iran over its nuclear program also has sharpened the logic of Israeli membership. Israel viewed Iranian weapons as an existential threat even before President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's call to wipe Israel from the map. The West may have to provide its own military deterrent to Iranian nuclear capability if it expects Israel to constrain itself from pre-emptive strikes.

Sen. John McCain (R., Ariz.) has said the only thing worse than using the military option against Iran is a nuclear Iran. "By the same token," says Uzi Arad, an Israeli intelligence veteran, "The only thing worse than Israel being a member of NATO may be Israel not being a member of NATO" if one wants a self-confident Israel that acts as a stabilizer instead of an element of risk.

Mr. Arad now heads the Atlantic Forum for Israel, a private initiative which for almost two years has worked to create political constituencies in Europe and Israel for a closer relationship. Ronald Asmus, a senior State Department official during the Clinton administration who is credited by Mr. Arad with being an "intellectual godfather" of closer NATO-Israel links, says arguments against membership remind him of the initial opposition to NATO enlargement to former Soviet bloc states or the alliance assuming its first missions beyond Europe.

The fear then, as now, was that such steps would overextend the alliance and provoke an anti-Western backlash. Opponents to NATO change, driven often by a reluctance to take on new responsibilities, have been proven wrong. "The greater the threats to Israel's existence, the more we need to step up our commitment," says Mr. Asmus, now executive director of the Transatlantic Center of the German Marshall Fund in Brussels.

Yet it is the ideas of former Spanish Prime Minister Jos Maria Aznar that are gaining the most traction. Mr. Aznar in a recent interview mapped out a broader concept for NATO's future that begins with the idea that it must go global to tackle terror and thus take on partners with common interests and real capability. Aside from drawing in Japan, Australia and Israel as members, he also suggests special relationships with regional linchpins such as India.

In corporate lingo, these are "stretch goals" for an alliance that will balk for some time at the notion of non-European members. Yet support is growing for a "halfway house" relationship with global partners that builds off similar programs that led to the inclusion of former Soviet satellites.

"I am not against, but I think NATO isn't ready yet for Israeli membership," says Oded Eran, Israel's ambassador in Brussels, who has negotiated the closer ties. "I prefer to take the gradual path."

The global-partner approach isn't U.S. policy just yet, although people familiar with the matter say President Bush discussed the concept with German Chancellor Angela Merkel, and U.S. Ambassador to NATO Victoria Nuland has brainstormed with colleagues about it.

"What we need to do," Ms. Nuland says, "is create a way for the 26 to have an ongoing political, operational and training relationship with the strong, democratic security providers in the world who share our values. The hope is to see NATO at the core of a global security community."

That's radical, logical and achievable.

Source
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Feb, 2006 10:15 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Finn, it's clear we'll never see eye to eye on the degree of importance 'after-life hopes and fears' play in the mind of the fanatic's foot soldiers. I'm satisfied with your concession that it plays some role. Razor thin difference in your mind, I understand, but I reasonably disagree. Also, IMO, this is only one advantage of the 'Religious Charismatic Fanatic'. Another would be the cross-border organization of fellowship that is pre-assembled so to speak. This could provide the 'Religious Charismatic Fanatic' a head start in his quest for global domination, should he be able to captivate a significant portion of members. Consider how even moderate Muslims are hesitant to openly criticize their more fanatical peers, much the same as Americans are more likely to look past American misdeeds. This cross-border advantage is demonstrated by the widespread mindless mobs going berserk over a friggin cartoon. Man's age old game of divide-and-conquer is more easily accomplished with a pre-existing, borderless, allegiance like that of the Muslim faith. The puppeteers who pull the strings on the more fanatical fools easily lit multiple fuses in multiple countries simultaneously. Here again; we could argue till the cows came home over the degree this advantage plays for the manipulative Man… and again I'd be satisfied that we agree it plays some roll. Whatever the degree of substance these advantages play, they are nonetheless advantages. IMHO, dangerous ones at that. When a significant percentage of 1.5 billion people even empathize with the barbarous actions of the fanatical few; every factor of this shared empathy is worthy of substantial consideration.


Well, we disagree.

Fair enough.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Feb, 2006 10:57 pm
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Well, we disagree.

Fair enough.
Indeed. And it doesn't happen too often from my end. Generally, your presence on a thread alleviates my purpose in posting since you usually articulate my thoughts more concisely than I do myself.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Feb, 2006 11:37 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Well, we disagree.

Fair enough.
Indeed. And it doesn't happen too often from my end. Generally, your presence on a thread alleviates my purpose in posting since you usually articulate my thoughts more concisely than I do myself.


Thank you.

We are united in our mutual admiration.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Feb, 2006 11:44 pm
:cool: <-Cool. Come to Chicago for the gathering on May 6th. A decent sampling of the who's who of A2k is expected to attend. I, for one, would love to meet you.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Feb, 2006 07:22 am
And if "one" is spoken with a deep, resonant voice drawn out and made proud and fullsome, it can sound like a big number.
0 Replies
 
 

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