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Map may show Chinese explorer discovered America

 
 
Reply Fri 13 Jan, 2006 09:51 am
About three years ago, the question already arose here on A2K, if Chinese discovered America.

"1421: The Year China Discovered the World", a book written in 2003 by Gavin Menzie, has been a quite successful bestseller, his website is very popular ---- although his theory hasn't got much (if any at all) support by professional historians.

An ancient map set to be unveiled next week may prove that it was a Chinese eunuch who discovered America and not Christopher Columbus.

Columbus found the New World in 1492, but a copy of a map dated 1418, to be made public in Beijing and London, could show that it was in fact Admiral Zheng He who got there first - more than 70 years earlier.

If proved to be genuine, the clear depiction of the Americas, Africa and Europe will bolster his case significantly, according to the Economist.



Quote:
Chinese cartography

China beat Columbus to it, perhaps


Jan 12th 2006
From The Economist print edition

An ancient map that strongly suggests Chinese seamen were first round the world

http://www.economist.com/images/20060114/0206BK1.jpg

THE brave seamen whose great voyages of exploration opened up the world are iconic figures in European history. Columbus found the New World in 1492; Dias discovered the Cape of Good Hope in 1488; and Magellan set off to circumnavigate the world in 1519. However, there is one difficulty with this confident assertion of European mastery: it may not be true.


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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jan, 2006 11:18 pm
Didn't the native americans discover the americas? I tend to think people got here at different times. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that chinese got here at some point, that vikings got here at another point. I'm talking about explorers who may have stayed alone or gone back to their own countries.
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chocolate yum
 
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Reply Sat 14 Jan, 2006 09:55 pm
I agree. ANyway the map COULD be fake... maybe
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edgarblythe
 
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Reply Sat 14 Jan, 2006 10:56 pm
Well, Columbus made the new world a known fact to the rest of the world, where the other discoverers didn't. In that sense, he did discover it first.
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farmerman
 
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Reply Sat 14 Jan, 2006 11:32 pm
To locate the latitudinal features so accurately (like the horn of Africa to the isthmus of Panama) is something that I have trouble buying in a short series of voyages. It would take a series of navigational treks to align those features of Africa, Europe and N America. And the fact that theyve even assumed that some of the features of the "Little Ice Age" were discovered by Adm Zheng. Too much of this information is correct on this map.
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 01:55 am
Although it seems that everything is possible, I share your doubts, farmerman, excactly because of those named reasons.
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satt fs
 
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Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 04:41 am
I have seen multiple maps drawn in ancient China. I guess this is a fake.
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Setanta
 
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Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 07:29 am
Although i agree with FM's thesis in general, i have a couple of observations to make--it is fairly well accepted that Zheng made it as far as Madagascar, so having more or less accurately portrayed the horn of Africa is not a problem to me. What is a problem is the depiction of the Atlantic coasts of four continents--there is no good reason to assume that Zheng ever ventured into the Atlantic, and there were no European sources for such maps in the early fifteenth century, either. Additionally, showing anything at the polar region is suspect . . .

As for lattitudinal accuracy, that's a snap, relatively speaking--the Arabs had a good, working astrolabe long before then.

Longitude is the bitch--le Sieur de la Salle had nearly reached the mouth of the Mississippi from the interior (but, significantly he did not go all the way, only about as far as the Atchafalaya log jam), but he did not have a clear idea of how far west he was. When he returned by sea, he searched fruitlessly for the mouth of the river, and finally put in at what is now Galveston Bay, because it was approximately correct in terms of its northern lattitude (remembering that he had not actually gone all the way to the mouth of the river when exploring from the north). The eventual result was his death, when he began marching east overland, and his men tired of the hopelessness of their situation and murdered him.

There is no reason to assume that the Chinese could not have calculated lattitude correctly--but there is every good reason to suggest that they had no more accurate a means of determining longitude than Arabs or Europeans--that would await the perfection of accurate clocks.
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satt fs
 
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Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 07:47 am
Although I think this is a fake with reference to other maps in China around 1400, I have no problem with the ability of mapping with accurate calculation of latitudes.. The Chinese had a good theory of latitudes already in BCE years..
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farmerman
 
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Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 08:26 am
Gentlemen, whie your pronouncements about latitude are correct, that wasnt my point. My point was that the almost perfect alignment of the Isthmus to the Horn of Africa would have required detailed headland mapping of both places to actually correctly align the two features on a spherical projection. The British Admiralty would send ships out on voyages of many years to accomplish just this detailing and alignment of their headland features. It also locates some strangely accurate features like the far northern arctic seas, (yet as everyone knew this area was locked in ice continually since the 1200s
Dont give latitude a quick dustoff. It has its own problems that can translate to hundreds of miles of error in navigation
things like polar wobble
variation in tilt
and the Chandler wobble(a 26000 year precession that accounts for 46 degree change in tilt)
which could throw latitudes off by as much as 50 miles per year cumulatively. These corrections werent available till the late 1800's and earlier maps will always show a variability in islands and isthmi every 100 years
Theres too much presumed accuracy (for its time) to let the Chinese be the "Discoverers" of some of these concepts in mapping when all they had was this fleet of deadrise flat bottom ships that probably moved slower than the tides at top speed.

They would have had to have sent fleets out to gather the data thats implied on this map. And, sre we aware of any encounters with the Coastal craft of more seafaring nations or galleas crafts. "Round ships " were used in blue water navigation since Midieval times. Israel Mekenen was doing engravings (Blue prints sort of) merchant vessels four masted roundships of the 1400s. Carracks and lateen rigged caravelles were sailing all over deep waters , so, if a Chinese party as reportedly large as Zhengs showed up , it had to get close to the land to map it, wouldnt we have some historical references? Did I miss school that day?.
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farmerman
 
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Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 08:43 am
BTW, most of the Zheng stories are the work of one guy, Gavin Menzies, who, as we recall, was going to come out with a "startling" revelation about a lost Chinese city in the North American Atlantic seacoast area. He was supposed to regale us with this announcement and evidence back in the spring of 2005. It came and went, meanwhile Menzies has been selling his book . Ive been waiting on this stuff with reserved interest since Walter first posted the first Zheng thread last year. Im slowly modifying my opinion about Menzies . Im beginning to think that hes more like Von Denniken than Bob Ballard.
All hes done is sold books and posted stuff on his website that, last tie i lokked , was beginning to sound like the Art Bell show (a little kooky).
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parados
 
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Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 08:57 am
It is possible that China travelled extensively in the Indian and Pacific oceans. So the features there on maps don't bother me so much. The Isthmus of Panama is the big one for me. It requires fairly accurate measurements on both sides of the continent. Note the Yucatan peninsula on the Altantic side. South America is just a blob but Central America is too well defined for a single 2 year trip around the world.
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Louise R Heller
 
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Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 09:13 am
The old Viking habitations along the coasts of Maine and Nova Scotia would pre-date that Menzies alleged map even if it weren't a flight of fancy.

This new craze for proving the Chinese invented and / or discovered everything is the new version of the old Stalinist doctrine claiming that communists invented everything starting with the railroads.

Next, alien abductions by Chinese-built spaceships?? Yawn!!!
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Louise R Heller
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 09:16 am
In fact why do we say Columbus discovered America?? He never even set foot on the continent.

Many centuries before him the Vikings did, and lived here until the small ice age forced them to abandon their settlements.
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farmerman
 
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Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 10:44 am
The viking habitats they are sure of include a small settlement in Lans Aux Meadows in Newfoundland. Although some of the sagas talk of sails to what we all agree is Maine, there has never been found any evidence. Besides, with all this travelling, by the time the "little Ice Age " broke, all the Vikings got out of North America
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talk72000
 
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Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 05:21 pm
Or died as there are indications of preserved bodies with arrows wounds in Greenland which I vaguely either saw on TV or read somewhere. The possibility that the Vikings may have taken in Native brides so they assimilated into the Native population as I don't think they had females aboard on those explorations.
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satt fs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2006 03:27 pm
Who Discovered America? Zheng Who?

Quote:
Who Discovered America? Zheng Who?

By JOSEPH KAHN
Published: January 17, 2006

BEIJING, Jan. 16 - A prominent Chinese lawyer and collector unveiled an old map on Monday that he and some supporters say should topple one of the central tenets of Western civilization: that Europeans were the first to sail around the world and discover America.

The Chinese map, which was drawn in 1763 but has a note on it saying it is a reproduction of a map dated 1418, presents the world as a globe with all the major continents rendered with an exactitude that European maps did not have for at least another century, after Columbus, Da Gama, Magellan, Dias and others had completed their renowned explorations.

But the map got a cool reception from some Chinese scholars and seems unlikely to persuade skeptics that Chinese seamen were the first to round the world

Liu Gang, a partner in a well-known Beijing law firm and an amateur historian, said Monday that he bought the map for $500 in a Shanghai book store in 2001 and only subsequently discovered its value. He said he had consulted scholars in the field and had done extensive research of his own before deciding to present his findings to the public.

The main issue is not the map itself," he said at a news conference. "It is the potential of the information in the map to change history."

At issue are the seven voyages of Zheng He, whose ships sailed the Pacific and Indian Oceans from 1405 to 1433. Historical records show that he explored Southeast Asia, India, the Persian Gulf and the east coast of Africa, using navigational techniques and ships that were far ahead of their time.

But a small group of scholars and hobbyists, led by Gavin Menzies, a former British Navy submarine commander, argue that Zheng He traveled much farther than most Chinese and Western scholars say. Notably, Mr. Menzies claims that Zheng He visited America in 1421, 71 years before Columbus arrived there.

His 2003 book, entitled "1421: The Year China Discovered America" (William Morrow/HarperCollins), laid out extensive but widely disputed evidence that Zheng He sailed to the east coast of today's United States in 1421 and may have left settlements in South America.

Mr. Menzies has welcomed Mr. Liu's map as evidence that his theory is correct, and the two have cooperated in efforts to demonstrate its authenticity. Strictly speaking, Mr. Liu credits Zheng He with having navigated and charted the Americas at least several years before Mr. Menzies says he sailed there, though both say that is a minor contradiction.

Zheng He's achievements have been the subject of speculation for years, partly because much of the historical record was destroyed when later Chinese emperors changed their minds about the wisdom of connecting with the outside world. Last year, China's Communist government commemorated the 600th anniversary of Zheng He's better known voyages, but Beijing has not actively promoted the idea that he sailed far beyond Asian and African shores.

If the map genuinely dates to 1418, it reveals knowledge of longitude and latitude and the basic shape of the world, including the fact that it is round, that could not have come from European sources and could have been derived only from Zheng He's voyages, Mr. Liu says.

He referred to 15th-century books and memorial inscriptions and 16th-century maps that credit earlier Chinese discoveries among a variety of indirect evidence to support his thesis.

But Mr. Liu acknowledged that he had no hard evidence of the existence of a 1418 map beyond the word of the mapmaker who said he made the copy in the late 18th century, a time when all of its cartographical achievements would have been commonplace.

Gong Yingyan, a historian at Zhejiang University and a leading map expert, argues that the map is too full of anachronisms to date from the 15th century.

He said, for example, that Chinese cartographers did not use the style of projection seen in Mr. Liu's map - the rendering of a three-dimensional globe on a flat sheet - until after Europeans introduced that technique to the Chinese much later.

The map's Chinese notes about the cultures, religious and racial features of people in the continents of the world also contain vocabulary that would have been unfamiliar to a reader in the early 15th century, he said. He cited the term the map uses for the Western God, which he said was not used until after the Jesuits arrived in China in the 16th century.

"I had high hopes when I first heard about the existence of such a map," Mr. Gong said. "But I can see now that it is an entirely ordinary map that proves nothing."
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2006 03:34 pm
talk72000 wrote:
Or died as there are indications of preserved bodies with arrows wounds in Greenland which I vaguely either saw on TV or read somewhere. The possibility that the Vikings may have taken in Native brides so they assimilated into the Native population as I don't think they had females aboard on those explorations.


In fact, they did have women. Eric Raudi (Eric "the Red") had women with him when he settled in Greenland, and others who had decided to join him brought more. What was called Vinland was "discovered" by a ship-load who had come to find Eric in Greenland, but which had gone off course. The leader of that group was smart enough to know he was too far south and too far west when he made landfall, so he put about and rather quickly found Greenland thereafter. The Greenland settlements were fairly prosperous in the terms of the day, for about two centuries. They eventually even had a bishop sent out. The last formal expedition into that area was sent by Margaret of Denmark in the mid-fourteenth century, to attempt to find out what had happended to the western settlements in Greenland, which had not been heard of for a long time. The eastern settlements were abandoned not long after.

Those who believe that the Kensington Stone is a legitimate artifact contend that it was made by the survivors of the expedition which Margartet sent out to look for the western Greenland settlers.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2006 03:40 pm
The Vikings normally had women with their expeditions - I deeply suspect, all blonde Rhinelanders like Heidi Klump for instance ...
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2006 07:18 pm
The Grenlanders Saga and the Saga of Eric T(the Red) mention that Erics sister was "among the women (her name was Gudrid. Also Erics Sister in Law, the widow of his dead brother accompanied them and got married to Thorwald Karlsefeni , who, went further south to land in "Vinland" , which was maybe Maine, maybe not. Only a coin witha hole for a necklace string ws found near the Penobscot. This coin, a Viking one, could have been a "skraeling's" necklace and the coin acquired in trade.
The Ingstad's , who first excavated L'Anse Aux Meadows, found lots of "distaff" artifacts like weight stones for drop spindles (not a man's occupation for Vikings) , they found whorls for yarn making, lots of weaving brace boards that were all but rotted away, hairpins, and combs.
They didnt find any evidence of a long settlement because there were no graves. It was thought that L'Anse ... was a ship repair and wood drop off point (they found butternut bords and nuts. None of these are (or I think were) native to the island of Newfoundland. Yes indeed , women accompanied and were important parts of the settlements division of labors. Norse women were tough broads and were reportedly accustomed to fishing for cod and doing the drying (I dont know effen dey hat Ludifisk)
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