Exactly Why Don't You Believe In the God of the Bible?

bienpensant wrote:

Howdy MA,
Thanks for your post regarding forum participant's views and opinions. Your perceptions are correct. In an forum of divisive, contentious issues, (religion, politics) exchange can degenerate into stone-throwing mayhem. Your sensitivity is noted.

I applaud you in your efforts. "...you have become all things to all men so that by all possible means you might save some."
ICorinthians 9:19-23NIV

While Paul was... in Athens...he reasoned... in the market place day by day... with those who happened to be there. Acts 17:16-21NIV

God Bless

These are very nice sentiments, bienpensant, and I do appreciate them. This thread is really to help me understand better those that do not believe in, accept, etc., God as I do. I felt if maybe I knew their thoughts and feelings better I could understand them better.

I have gained a lot of understanding through this thread.

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Just saw this thread. I'll give you my answer, momma.
I was raised in a family of a philosopher. Dialectical materialist at that. He was, as a young communist (early fifties, before the staged political trials hit the fan), excommunicated and publicly damned. That alone I find hypocritical of the Church, but never you mind, he was a proclaimed atheist anyway. In the seventies he signed Charter'77, a dissenting document for which signatories went to jail, were subjected to housechecks and interrogations every few weeks for the coming twenty years. That's the atmosphere I grew up in. Where was the Church? Well, the few of those that were involved in Christian underground movement did not want to get involved into 'civil' dissent, proclaim any support to those that were putting their necks on line, because they didn't have a 'mandate' (their own words) from God and the Church for that. I'll let you form your own opinion on that.
After 1989, when Communism fell, the Catholic church was breaking its legs to invite my father back into its circles. He laughed at them. At least he's not publicly damned anymore, haha.

If this organization represents the God of the Bible, I am sorry, I do not have respect. Throughout my life, neither the Church, nor the God himself, have ever done anything for my family. I've never seen single proof of his existence, only to the contrary. I believe in science and human progress. I believe in kindness and empathy. I do not NEED God.

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Momma wrote:

Quote:

Those are a certain group of people. They do not reflect what all or even most of Christianity IMO believe. I, in no way whatsoever, agree with what those people do or think

Momma,

You bring us back to the ultimate question of why you think you know what your god wants and how you know those other equally fervid believers are wrong?

You can be certain they have reams of biblical passages ready to defend their views.

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dagmaraka Wrote:

Quote:

Just saw this thread. I'll give you my answer, momma.
I was raised in a family of a philosopher. Dialectical materialist at that. He was, as a young communist (early fifties, before the staged political trials hit the fan), excommunicated and publicly damned. That alone I find hypocritical of the Church, but never you mind, he was a proclaimed atheist anyway. In the seventies he signed Charter'77, a dissenting document for which signatories went to jail, were subjected to housechecks and interrogations every few weeks for the coming twenty years. That's the atmosphere I grew up in. Where was the Church? Well, the few of those that were involved in Christian underground movement did not want to get involved into 'civil' dissent, proclaim any support to those that were putting their necks on line, because they didn't have a 'mandate' (their own words) from God and the Church for that. I'll let you form your own opinion on that.
After 1989, when Communism fell, the Catholic church was breaking its legs to invite my father back into its circles. He laughed at them. At least he's not publicly damned anymore, haha.

If this organization represents the God of the Bible, I am sorry, I do not have respect. Throughout my life, neither the Church, nor the God himself, have ever done anything for my family. I've never seen single proof of his existence, only to the contrary. I believe in science and human progress. I believe in kindness and empathy. I do not NEED God.

I certainly can understand why your father and you would have these feelings, dagmaraka. If there is one thing I believe more than another it is that God would turn away no one that seeks Him. The problem is IMO that when man does this kind of thing in the name of God they give God a really bad rap. And who can blame them? If man seems to be following a religion it just makes sense that they are (supposedly) following what God would want.

Take those things Mesquite posted earlier. If that is the way I thought God wanted me to act, I'd be an atheist (non-believer, etc.) myself. I am glad that is not the concept of God that I have.

You said you don't NEED God. Ever? Was there ever a single time you felt maybe you did?

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Nope, never. I rely on myself, my own conscience. Sure it's hard, but I don't need no crutch to face up to my actions.

My father was very religious as a teenager. But he still chose the path he did and never turned back once. I was always proud of him and have no reason in my mind to ever doubt whether I was raised right. Thought of God has never crossed my mind. I just do not believe.

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(I know you asked dag and not me, but since we covered similar ground a while ago, forgive me for stepping in and saying "no -- never." That doesn't mean I haven't felt a need for something -- more friends, more opportunities to exercise, more opportunities to accomplish things -- things that go into helping me be a content person. But that need has never ever taken the form of having a need for a god.)

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Have you ever needed god Momma?

Does it worry you that perhaps your certainty of his existence arises from your need, rather than the other way around?

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ditto. on many an occasion i wished to be a better person, but i did get the strength to become one from within myself and from those closest to me.

all in all, i think i have been far more fortuitous than many deeply believing christians. i have a loving family that's extremely close, understanding, and full of deep respect for each other and for humanity in general, i have suceeded with just about anything i touched (in terms of jobs, schools, fellowships...), i was fortunate in love, i feel strong and full of love. I really don't feel god is missing in my life at all.

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Eorl Wrote:

Quote:

Momma,

You bring us back to the ultimate question of why you think you know what your god wants and how you know those other equally fervid believers are wrong?

You can be certain they have reams of biblical passages ready to defend their views.

Thanx for answering me, Eorl. And I neglected to thank dagmaraka for answering me! I'm sorry dagmaraka. I do appreciate you taking the time to answer me.

And this is probably one of the hardest things for me to explain, eorl. How does one know that what they read in the Bible is what God wants and not what someone else says they read? I can't answer for anyone else. I can only answer for myself. I know there are plenty of factions that will take a single verse in the Bible and twist it into a complete doctrine and make a new church.

I can only tell you that when I read my Bible I ask God for understanding of what I am reading. I have yet to read anything in the Bible that would make me go out and do some of the things that Mesquite posted earlier. That has just never happened to me. I may not agree with something someone does or believes but to actually go out there and do those kinds of things is just uncomprehensible to me. I mean, if you just look at it in the simplest of terms, (i.e., my baseball bat or bombing the abortion clinic method I call it), if you do these things to people they aren't going to be receptive at all because they are reeling from your blows! What is so hard for people to understand about that? That is not what God/Jesus would do! That is not what He did!

I listen to a Christian Chat room while I am working on the computer. There are some awesome things I have learned and then there are the "baseball bat" and "bombing the abortion clinic" type of Christians on there. They actually believe that what they are saying is right! No matter how many people try to tell them what they are doing is frightening people off! Right now, they are talking about the great falling away of God's people that is coming in the end days. Eorl, they cannot see it, but this is the kind of thing that causes that great falling away! It is not what God does or doesn't do that causes that. God does not change. It's what man is doing with God's word that causes this.

Throughout this thread I have heard stories about how people have treated others in the name of God and people have fallen away from God because of it! And I honestly cannot say I blame them at all. I understand so much more than I did.

Dagmaraka, sozobe, and eorl,

I am fixing supper right now but I really want to get back to this. Good questions! Be back in an hour or so. Will have why I don't think God wants us to suffer for the others that asked also.

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Ok, so after some thought (not much, admittedly), I've come up with an answer a bit more elaborate than, "Because I do".

I went to a catholic church until I was around 5-6. I harbor no bad feelings about this time. I am not a catholic in recovery type person. I actually know very little about the faith I was born into.

My parents made a concious decision to stop going, they were doubting their belief. None of us has gone back to the church, except for special occasions. For me, thoseoccasions have been funerals and weddings. My parents went to a MLK mass last weekend.

So, as a child, my church experience didn't really instill any faith, my parents didn't either. What I saw in my church-going friends' lives made me shy away more (wash your mouth out with soap? seriously?). At best, I see masses as interesting and churches as often beautiful architecturally.

So, what then about god? I did question myself as I became an adult and through my early 20s. Exactly what did I mean by 'god bless you' or 'I swear to god!'. They were strictly societal, habitual. But, the fact that I said them, even without belief,made me think about god. I decided, since there was no proof, since the world was full of horrorable things, there must be no god.

It was a thought out conclusion, but not one that came with any big agitation to get there.

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no rush, momma. i'm off to bed, almost 2am here.
besides, i have two good friends who are deeply religious. so we've been through this back and forth (why believe- why not believe...) through our teenage and adolescent years. i have it all firmly settled in my head.

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Okay, I have been doing quite a bit of reading on if God actually wants us to suffer or not. I don't believe God WANTS us to suffer. I don't believe He wanted Adam and Eve to suffer. He gave them a perfect place and they made a decision to not accept it. But, is that what God wanted? I don't think so. Then why give us free will? I think He did that because He does love us. Look how upset so many get now just at the thought of someone not wanting someone to have the choice of abortion or same sex marriage. Can you imagine how much more so it would be if God made us puppets with no decision making for ourselves at all?

I can think of situations in our lives where it may seem we are wanting someone to suffer for something but in all actuality we are letting them suffer the consequences of their actions so they can learn from them.
Take the addict/alcoholic. If we pick that person up every time they make a mistake, owe money and we pay it for them, give them a place to live because they have been kicked out because they bought drugs instead of paying the rent, all we are doing is enabling that person to stay in their addiction and not helping them to get better at all. We don't want these loved ones to suffer but if they don't, the odds of them getting help and getting better aren't very good.

I found this explanation about why God lets us suffer and hope it helps explain better what I am saying.

"The curious as well as the critics of Christianity ask this question. If God is all-powerful and all loving, then why does He permit evil and suffering in the world? Various answers have been given but permanently settling the issue is impossible because so many of our answers raise further questions. Nevertheless, our lack of ability to answer the question perfectly does not mean that we cannot offer solutions. Of course, I do not assume to be able to answer these questions definitively, but I can offer some solutions.

First of all, it is possible that God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that we simply cannot understand. In this the Christian can have confidence in God knowing that His ways are above our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). As the Bible says, the just shall live by faith (Hab. 2:4).
Second, God may be letting evil run its course in order to prove that evil is evil and that suffering, which is the unfortunate product of evil, is further proof that anything contrary to God's will is bad, harmful, painful, and leads to death.

God gave Adam dominion over the world (Gen. 1:28). When he rebelled against God, he set in motion an entire series of events and changed the very nature of man and creation. Both were affected by sin. Creation was no longer a paradise, but bore thorns and thistles (Gen. 3:17-18; Rom. 8:22). People became sinful (Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:3), who were haters of God (Rom. 3:19-12), etc. The only conclusion to such a situation is death. Jesus said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened" (Matt. 24:22).

Sin is rebellion against God and His created order. But God has not left us alone in this fallen world. He continued to enter this world, pointing us to Himself, to truth, to morality, purity, and love. He used the evil of the world (liars, perjurers, the envious, etc), to bring His Son to the cross so that we might have the opportunity of eternal life. In this, God has not stepped away from fallen creation, but has stepped into it by becoming Jesus. God works within the fallen world to affect change and He uses fallen people to accomplish His will. In this, He is proving His sovereignty over evil, suffering, and rebellious people, proving that sin and evil are utterly futile, and that He is worthy of honor and glory.

A third possible reason that God is letting evil occur is so that on the day of judgment, the condemned will have no right to say that their sentence is unjust. God is not stopping people from exercising their free will. Think about this: If someone said that God should stop evil and suffering, then should God then stop all evil and suffering? If God only stopped some of it, then we would still be asking the same question of why it exists. So, if we want God to stop evil and suffering, then He must stop all of it. We have no problem with this when it means stopping a catastrophe, or a murder, or a rape. But what about when someone thinks of something evil? Evil is evil whether it is acted out or not. Hatred and bigotry in someone's heart is wrong. If it is wrong, and if God is to stop all evil, then He must stop that person from thinking his own thoughts. To do that, God must remove his freedom of thought.

Furthermore, which person on the earth has not thought something evil? God would be required, then, to stop all people from exercising their free will. This is something God has chosen not to do. Therefore, we could say that one of the reasons that God permits evil and suffering is because of man's free will.

Fourth, it is quite possible that God uses the suffering to do good. In other words, He produces patience through tribulation (Rom. 5:3). Or He may desire to save someone through it. Take for example, the account of Joseph who was sold into slavery by His brothers. What they did was wrong and Joseph suffered greatly for it. But, later, God raised up Joseph in Egypt to make provisions for the people of that land during the coming drought of seven years. But not only was Egypt saved, but also so was his family and brothers who originally sold him into slavery. Joseph finally says to them, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:15-21). Of course, the greatest example of God using evil for good is the death of Christ. Evil people brought him to the cross, but God used that cross as the means to save the world.

But then we must ask, if this is true, are we working against God by working against evil and suffering? No, we are not. God says he does not want us to sin and suffer. But it is simply true that God can use evil despite of its apparent despicable nature.

God is in the world using the world and its failures for His glory and the benefit of those who listen to Him.

But then, what about those who seem to innocently suffer with no benefit resulting? What about the woman who is raped, or the innocent by stander who is killed by a stray bullet. In both cases, the victims and families suffer nothing but pain and loss. What good can this possibly be?
I think that the answer is two-fold. One, ultimately, no one is innocent. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) and are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3). There is none innocent. Though this is biblically accurate, it does not satisfy the question emotionally. Why do little babies suffer for things they have not done? I must acknowledge that I do not know. Ultimately, we must trust God who knows the beginning from the end and sees the grand picture. He will have the final word and He will be vindicated.

Conclusion:

Suffering is the result of human sin. The world is not the way that God created it and because of that, all are vulnerable to the affects of sin in the world. Why does one person suffer and another does not? Why do catastrophes happen to some and no others? It is because sin is in the world. But there will come a day when the Lord will return and cleanse this world of all sin and all suffering. "

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

http://www.carm.org/questions/suffering.htm

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sorry M A, but that's just a bunch of malarkey from someone that's making up excuses for the Christian god.

If there is a god, there is no excuse for a single child starving to death, much less the number that die everyday.

Unless god's a malevolence, evil bastard himself.

Or just plain doesn't exists.

P

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I tend to agree, but am curious about Momma Angel's reactions to our answers to her question about a need for god before going off on a new tangent...

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Momma Angel wrote:

Okay, I have been doing quite a bit of reading on if God actually wants us to suffer or not...

(But of course, you start with a very BIG assumption; that there *is* a God at all. And because that is unknown, EVERYTHING else you derive from that assumption is pure conjecture.)

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program...

Momma Angel wrote:

I don't believe God WANTS us to suffer. I don't believe He wanted Adam and Eve to suffer. He gave them a perfect place and they made a decision to not accept it. But, is that what God wanted? I don't think so. Then why give us free will? I think He did that because He does love us. Look how upset so many get now just at the thought of someone not wanting someone to have the choice of abortion or same sex marriage. Can you imagine how much more so it would be if God made us puppets with no decision making for ourselves at all?

I can think of situations........................................................

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Good thing you reminded me sozobe. I completely forgot about that question!

Have I ever needed God? Every day. I used to have what I called a God-shaped hole in my heart.

No matter what I tried to fill that hole with, nothing worked. Not men, not friends, not drugs, not alcohol, nothing. I finally got to the point of just giving in and giving up. When I finally got to the very end of my rope, I literally hit my knees and begged God to help me because I just couldn't take it anymore. I immediately felt the weight of the world lift off of me. To some, this might be endorphins or something. Hey, that's ok. I know what it was for me. For me, it was God answering my prayer.

I knew the things I was doing in my life were wrong. I cared about no one or anything but me and what I could get out of every situation I was in. Did I need God? Oh boy, did I ever! When I finally realized that I needed God and wanted God in my life my whole world changed. I still have trials and tribulations (who doesn't) but usually they are ones I create myself.

I have very strong faith, yes. I can't think of anything that could shake it. It wouldn't do me much good if it could be shaken. There is still so much I need to learn about other people and how they feel and think.

Unfortunately, you can't give someone faith. You can't make them feel what you feel about God. You can't explain to them how you know it is God that is working in your life. If these things could be done there'd be no problem with miscommuncation.

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Roseborne,

I know of no other way to do it. To me there is no presumption. To me there is a God. I can only tell you my thoughts, feelings, beliefs, etc., from my standpoint. Whether you accept those things is entirely up to you. It doesn't change the way I think about them or think about anyone else.

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It just comes down to the fact that I think some people need an imaginary friend, and delude themselves into believing that they have one. When asked for the tiniest shred of evidence that they are correct that he exists, they say something absurd like, "for myself, I don't need proof." What does that even mean? Someone who believes he is Napoleon might very well say the same thing. It is nothing more than defining yourself to be right. I defy anyone on the board to present evidence that even suggests (not proof - suggests) that a God exists.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Mesquite,

Those are a certain group of people. They do not reflect what all or even most of Christianity IMO believe. I, in no way whatsoever, agree with what those people do or think. I don't know any place in the Bible that we should go out and do those things! Those things are not what God says we should do.

Yes they are a certain group of people that IMO are sickos without conscience, but they do justify their actions with the Bible. They, like you think they know what God wants them to do. Please see their FAQ here.[/u]

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mesquite,

I had a quick look....my favorite bit so far is ....

Quote:

"Why do we preach Hate?......Because the Bible preaches Hate! "

O sweet baby cheeses !!!

They seem rather preoccupied with one particular "sin".
I suspect some of these guys might have got to "know" their local priests "in the biblical sense" when they were little boys.

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Exactly Why Don't You Believe In the God of the Bible?

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