Exactly Why Don't You Believe In the God of the Bible?

mesquite wrote:

I think a more appropriate question would be why should one believe in God? It's not like God is a given. Before there is a reason not to believe, there should be a demonstrable reason to believe.

I once believed in Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny. I have recounted this story before, but there was a time when I was sure I had caught the Easter Bunny. My parents helped me set up a trap and the next morning there he was all beautiful and white and fluffy. I cannot remember the exact moment when I realized it was not the real Easter Bunny and there was no Easter Bunny. It was just a part of growing up. The same thing for belief in Santa and the Tooth Fairy. At some point in early childhood it just becomes obvious.

For me, belief in Bible god was similar. Although I was raised a Christian, went to church on Sundays, and was baptised in a Southern Baptist church, it just never really made sense. I suppose I have been a non believer since my early teens, but never really gave it a whole lot of thought through out most of my adult life.

Sounds like as a child...you really wanted and counted on the existence of Santa Clause and the like at one time and was let down. So was I.

I remember the pain involved. It is not an easy thing to remain hopeful when many of life's experiences tell us to be otherwise.

The higher the hope....the greater the potential heartbreak.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Mesquite,

You were raised a Christian? That's very interesting. Ok, can you pinpoint exactly (or maybe close to it) where it didn't make sense? Was there a certain thing that you heard? That happened? Was it something that just never made sense?

It was never of major importance to me. There was no one big thing that I can recall that tipped the scales. I was always inquisitive and drawn to math and science. The simplistic Bible stories just didn't cut it for me even back in the fifties.

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Perhaps folks don't believe because of the blood soaked history of Christendom.

Not just christians killing non christians. Can you think of times in recent history where so-called christians killed other christians?

Rwanda
Ireland
WWII
WWI
More? You bet.

If you tell me atheists often kill other atheists, I will ask you who should be taking the high ground?

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I don't have a problem just with the Christian version of God, but any kind of gods. Since they could not possibly be real, I don't like it when people try to force these concepts on me. When the religious learn to live and let live I will cease to argue the topic.

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There is no logical reason for a deity. That being said, in particular, the god of the bobble is puerile, vengeful, murderously violent, racist and sexist. A more despicable character would be hard to imagine.

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Momma wrote:

First of all, I do want to make something clear to everyone out there. I understand why so many may be atheists in today's times because of the problems with Christianity.

First of all, I think that your premise is coming from a very narrow, religiocentric base. Christianity is not the only religion. I, for instance was raised in the Jewish tradition. I started to question the issue of religion back in 1951, which certainly cannot be called "today's times". My questioning related to the fact, that a lot that I learned about the bible not only did not make any logical sense to me, but was downright aversive.

As I grew and matured, I began to realize that what I was learning was simply the thoughts, ideas and conclusions that were promulgated by a group of primitive peoples. We, as humans had come much farther along in our understanding of the world in the intervening years. I also realized that there was absolutely no reason to take any credence in the entire concept of a God. To me, the bible was yet simply another chapter in the rich mythology of mankind.

I have always respected the traditions of the Jewish people, as part of my history and my heritage. I see it though as a matter of historical significance, and not anything to do with modern existence.

The only time when Jewishness has become an issue, is when confronted with prejudice by another group, such as the Nazis in WWII, or the militant Islamists of today.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Mesquite,

You were raised a Christian? That's very interesting. Ok, can you pinpoint exactly (or maybe close to it) where it didn't make sense? Was there a certain thing that you heard? That happened? Was it something that just never made sense?

He's not the only one, although my parents never raised me up to be a Christian and I was never baptised (as far as I know).

I'd initially say that I don't know a single person in my country who didn't start off being raised as a Christian, but then a recent report says that state schools have been failing to give children the Christian morning worship that the law requires them to have.

At one time I stated that I was no longer a Christian because of how it was forced onto me and because of my idiotic Scriptures teacher whom would shove the same darned story of Jesus' birth, crucifixion and the Pentecost over and over again. After much deliberation, I've kind of realised that this isn't the only reason and was more of a subconscious one at that.

As time passed on and as I matured, I learnt more about science. The concept of God and religion didn't really enter my mind. I didn't really go to Church either, but because I attended a school in which the Assemblys started off with singing Christian hymns and prayers, I guess I got a taste of Christian worship.

The thought of an afterlife comforted me. To think that there was a God up there that would right the wrongs after life was very comforting.

Now that I think about it, I don't think the latter was very comforting at all. The God of the Old Testament righted wrongs during life, as well as after. Now he just lets the bad things happen? And even before, the measures he took were so extreme and seemingly evil. After giving it much thought, you couldn't justify it.

To say that he knows best isn't a good reason at all. Say you were a German living under Hitler. He set himself up to be omnipotent and omniscient too, and in some ways he was. Could you justify the evil acts he did to punish those he didn't like, with the reason, "because he knows better than you"?

Also, science seemed to end up contradicting things in the Bible. Well, that didn't really push God out of the picture because God =/= Bible (God does not equal Bible).

No, it was the logical inconsistences. The fact that you couldn't prove God to be true no matter how much you tried. In the end, I decided those who started up the religion deliberately chose a definition of God that made it near outright impossible to disprove his existence.

And that is true. You cannot disprove God's existence, because of the way he has been defined. How can you say he's not omniscient, if you yourself don't know everything? How can you say he's not omnipotent, if you yourself are not capable of even a fraction of omnipotence? How can you say he's not omnipresent, if you yourself aren't every at once and cannot go everywhere?

It's rather a disingenious definition, when you think about it.

As someone who adheres to the scientific principles as much as possible, I cannot claim to be an outright atheist, because there is not enough evidence to prove that atheism is correct, so I am forced to state that I am agnostic.

Besides, I cannot believe that the concept of God as described by any religion is correct. All religions have changed over the time, their religious texts written by fallible humans that may have had a political agenda behind their motives.

Furthermore, every other God before this Abrahamic God has been false before. What makes this one anymore true than the others? Because there's more followers? Not likely, because the religion is evangelical and calls for non-believers to be converted (whereas the older ones more likely called for non-believers to be killed).

In a way the most popular religions are like a virus (sorry, but I couldn't think up of a better analogy). They were deliberately spread across the world, through human intervention. That does not prove that the God behind this religion was anymore true than the other gods. It just proves that the believers of this God are more virulent in their cause.

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Why I don't believe in the God of the bible:

1) The God of the bible appears too eclectic a being to exist.

By this I mean he appears to transform over a period of time as the needs and desires of man change. This is not indicative of one supreme being.

2) Today's vision of the God of the bible has largely been defined by the interpretations of man, and not based upon anything that God has actually supplied us. So even if there were proof that God exists, I doubt seriously he'd be the God everyone thinks he is.

3) The God of the bible is professed to love everyone. Given the fact that Setanta is included within that number, I find that to be reason for invalidation of such a statement, thereby negating one of the fundamental aspects of this God.

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Yeah, or for my entry, you could just reread Questioner's more simplistic version, which somehow acts like a summary of my post.

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Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

Yeah, or for my entry, you could just reread Questioner's more simplistic version, which somehow acts like a summary of my post.

Heh, Sorry Wolf. It takes me a rather longish time to make a post in the morning as I've got a steady stream of people in and out of my office.

Didn't get a chance to read your post.

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Questioner wrote:

Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
Yeah, or for my entry, you could just reread Questioner's more simplistic version, which somehow acts like a summary of my post.

Heh, Sorry Wolf. It takes me a rather longish time to make a post in the morning as I've got a steady stream of people in and out of my office.

Didn't get a chance to read your post.

Okay, I exaggerate. I do have a few other points in my post that you don't cover, but your 3 points sums up the major reasons why I don't believe in God quite nicely.

No need to apologise. My post needed summing up anyway.

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Questioner wrote:

3) The God of the bible is professed to love everyone. Given the fact that Setanta is included within that number, I find that to be reason for invalidation of such a statement, thereby negating one of the fundamental aspects of this God.

LMAO . . .

I would have used the verb form "purported" . . .

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lightfoot Wrote:

Quote:

Hi Momma.
If all the God's that came before your God had the same proof of being "THE TRUE" as your God. He would end up being as believable as them.. and I bet all dem believers in the old God's have got the sh+t's now, where ever the might be... all because they believed for all the same "proof" as you have. But then again I might wrong, but unlike the religious of us I don't care a dam... much prefer to live my life and bring up my children the way I did... enjoyed my life so far, hope to keep enjoying it till it ends, never be "beholding" to anyone or any thing.... life has consisted of thinking not "what if's", but..... "so what".

Hi lightfoot. Thank you for answering my question. I do appreciate it.

I am intrigued by this statement of ours "If all the God's that came before your God...." Are you speaking of gods that you know of or are you speaking of history, what other people claim, etc?

Also, your never "beholding" statement I find very interesting. Had someone/something put the thought that you were beholding to anyone or anything in your mind at a particular time about a particular thing concerning our existence?

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Bartikus Wrote:

Quote:

Sounds like as a child...you really wanted and counted on the existence of Santa Clause and the like at one time and was let down. So was I.

I remember the pain involved. It is not an easy thing to remain hopeful when many of life's experiences tell us to be otherwise.

The higher the hope....the greater the potential heartbreak.

Hi Bartikus. Glad you joined us.

I am learning a lot from those that don't believe. I think I might have been missing the point with them before and I am really hoping I can understand their viewpoint much better.

I like the way you stated this. I can completely understand those feelings and not wanting to go through them again. Since this is such an important personal issue, I can imagine the thought of it possibly not being true to some would cause them different degrees of concern.

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Mesquite Wrote:

Quote:

It was never of major importance to me. There was no one big thing that I can recall that tipped the scales. I was always inquisitive and drawn to math and science. The simplistic Bible stories just didn't cut it for me even back in the fifties.

I think I told of this before, but it seems to apply here. I had a friend who was once Christian. He became a Buddhist. We were talking one day and I asked him why he switched to Buddhism. His answer really took me aback. He said, "Because the answers in Christianity were just too simple."

Is it because the stories don't all have a beginning, middle, and an end such as in novels or even in the case of equations that makes them too simple? Or are they just missing information in your opinion?

Also Mesquite, do you think that those more inclined to the math and science way of processing things (might not be the right phrase but I hope you get my meaning) have a harder time just accepting simple explanations? That doesn't sound quite right but I can't think how to state it any better. If you need clarification on that, I will see what I can do.

I really appreciate you answering these questions, Mesquite. I have always found you rather intriguing.

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Neologist Wrote:

Quote:

Perhaps folks don't believe because of the blood soaked history of Christendom.

Not just christians killing non christians. Can you think of times in recent history where so-called christians killed other christians?

Rwanda
Ireland
WWII
WWI
More? You bet.

If you tell me atheists often kill other atheists, I will ask you who should be taking the high ground?

Hi Neo! Thanx for dropping in. I do understand the bloody history of Christianity, as well as some other religions and non-religions. I am trying to get everyone's personal (if they want to share them) reasons for not believing. So far, I've gotten some very interesting responses that have brought up questions for me to ask. Stick around!

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You tell me exactly who or what "the God of the Bible" is MA and I will tell you if I believe it.

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edgarblythe Wrote:

Quote:

I don't have a problem just with the Christian version of God, but any kind of gods. Since they could not possibly be real, I don't like it when people try to force these concepts on me. When the religious learn to live and let live I will cease to argue the topic.

Hi edgar! Thanx so much for posting!

Edgar, you stated, "Since they could not possibly be real...." I think that is probably as close as anyone has come to just flat out saying there is no such thing. Things like I don't know, don't see a need, don't see a reason, etc., have been stated many times, but this is a first (I think).

Can you tell me why you feel they could not possibly be real? Is this a personal feeling? Do you feel something has happened in some way to give you proof of this?

One of my reasons for this thread edgar, is to better understand those that don't believe. If I can do that, then perhaps I can learn how not to seem to be trying to force my beliefs on you or anyone else. That is not what I want to do.

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I was raised by agnostics, both of my brothers are agnostic. I am an atheist because I find "reality" (ie the physical world) adequate to meet my needs whereas I find "non-reality" (ie the meta-physical world) inadequate to meet anyone's needs.

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Phoenix Wrote:

Quote:

First of all, I think that your premise is coming from a very narrow, religiocentric base. Christianity is not the only religion. I, for instance was raised in the Jewish tradition. I started to question the issue of religion back in 1951, which certainly cannot be called "today's times". My questioning related to the fact, that a lot that I learned about the bible not only did not make any logical sense to me, but was downright aversive.

Hi lady! I am so glad that you posted, Phoenix. Your posts always keep me grounded and I do appreciate them. Yes, I realize it is a narrow base I am coming from here. I can only speak of the God of the Bible because that is the one that I believe in and know about. I did not limit this thread to the God of the Bible for any other reason than that.

You were raised in the Jewish tradition? That fascinates me. I have a friend who is Jewish and we discuss our views quite often. There is one question that I have yet to get a definitive answer from her on. Perhaps you can answer it? Can you explain to me why it is that Jesus is not accepted as the Messiah in the Jewish tradition? Is there a specific reason? More than one reason?

Quote:

As I grew and matured, I began to realize that what I was learning was simply the thoughts, ideas and conclusions that were promulgated by a group of primitive peoples. We, as humans had come much farther along in our understanding of the world in the intervening years. I also realized that there was absolutely no reason to take any credence in the entire concept of a God. To me, the bible was yet simply another chapter in the rich mythology of mankind.

I seem to be detecting a pattern. It seems as though a big problem with the Bible and the God of the Bible is that many feel it has not "progressed" with mankind. Is this what you are saying? If so, is there a reason that you feel that God or the Bible should progress with man? I hope I am stating these things correctly. I am very interested in the answers I am getting from everyone.

Quote:

I have always respected the traditions of the Jewish people, as part of my history and my heritage. I see it though as a matter of historical significance, and not anything to do with modern existence.

The only time when Jewishness has become an issue, is when confronted with prejudice by another group, such as the Nazis in WWII, or the militant Islamists of today.

I am not sure exactly what you mean here. Are you speaking of religious traditions? Are there are types of traditions that are non-religious in the Jewish people? I only know what my friend has told me but we haven't really delved into this particular area that much.

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Exactly Why Don't You Believe In the God of the Bible?

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