Prayer=weakness

I show that prayer and success need not be mutually exclusive and that there is compelling evidence that many successful people pray.

Dr S,

Your keyword in all that is "useful" not "language".

I agree that we tend to operate on a daily (non-philosophical) basis as "users" and "controllers". We all segment "events" according to our mutual concerns and purposes and we evaluate our segmentation by"successful control".

However, when we come to matters "beyond our control" we can naively designate that "control" to "a big controller" (as in prayer) or we can examine the very nature of"causality" and "the control urge" itself (as in philosophy and psychology). Wittgenstein for example did not say "that language could take us anywhere" but that "language has limits" which are defined by "common usage games". The game concerning "causality" is no longer applicable at the boundaries of "scientific knowledge" even though it has meaning in agreed closed subsystems. But notice that agreement here imples "controlled parameters" indicating eventual circularity of definition.

What I think you do (with great respect) is that you argue against the "naive view of God the controller" without investigating the notion of "control" itself. This means that your own position is dependent on the "God concept" by virtue of antithesis, in the same way that "post Freudians" could be said to owe their postions to Freud. You are playing the same "game" as theists but advocating "superior tactics".

Yes, a hard life is the hallmark of many that turn to religion.

I'm the other one wrote:

What would you think to prayer that does work?

This sentence is nonsensical. I will assume that 'so' is supposed to read 'of' for the purpose of answering.
What would I think? I would think the person accrediting results to prayer was exibiting signs of delusional behavior.

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Which in my case...it usually does...and I don't ask for little unimportant things...such as a new purse with matching shoes.

Right. Do you use magic pixie dust too?

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Would you think it mere coincidence? Positive energy? Or do you even think there is energy? Since you can't see it...

I have never stated something doesn't exist because you can't see it. Try to keep your strawmen to yourself, please.
Energy certainly exists, but not in the context you are asserting.
Anyway, things happen because people make things happen. Not magic...people.

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I believe in God...yet I know he lives within me too. There's no question
about it.

The branch davidians 'knew' a few things too....

pray for some winning lottery numbers for me if you'd be so kind

You'll have to excuse me, I may be a little too delusional to answer this question.
I don't need magic pixie dust. neither does God!

So..you believe there's energy, but not chakras...which is a form of energy.

en·er·gy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nr-j)
n. pl. en·er·gies

1. The capacity for work or vigorous activity; vigor; power. See Synonyms at strength.
2.
1. Exertion of vigor or power: a project requiring a great deal of time and energy.
2. Vitality and intensity of expression: a speech delivered with energy and emotion.
3.
1. Usable heat or power: Each year Americans consume a high percentage of the world's energy.
2. A source of usable power, such as petroleum or coal.
4. Physics. The capacity of a physical system to do work.

You sure like the word strawmen, don't you?

Recently my mom's mamogram showed up with a lump in it so they wanted to see her again for more tests. I prayed over and over. She went back and it was not cancerous...yes this happens. Then her test results came thru the mail, and there was no lump at all. Like it didn't happen.

I put an ad in the paper for a large female dog. Then prayed that night for a responce to the ad. The same day it came out, someone called for me to come look at a female white German Sheppard. I thought this was cool since not only was she free, and female, but the fact that it happened so quick and she was the same breed.

Questioner, Hello. :wink:

There's been things along the way to let me know he's there. I know I can't explain them as anything of the ordinary.

And for the prayers...there's been many, not all answered but I was tryng to recall certain ones.

Recently my mom's mamogram showed up with a lump in it so they wanted to see her again for more tests. I prayed over and over. She went back and it was not cancerous...yes this happens. Then her test results came thru the mail, and there was no lump at all. Like it didn't happen.

Whenever my heart weighs heave and I want to find answers to certain things...the answers show up, whether it's the first passage I turn to in the bible, as I'm changing channels on the tv, radio. For instance...I was told that I must not be saved since I couldn't remember when or where it happened. That concerned me, not realy enough to stay up at night over, but enough. The next day or two, I was told the answer to this twice...once on tv, once on radio. Or if I'm contemplating something, something leads me to turn into the bible, there it is!

I know this is kind of a material thing, but My German Sheppard, Harley had a mate a few years ago but she ran away and never came back. I knew he was lonely. I put an ad in the paper for a large female dog. Then prayed that night for a responce to the ad. The same day it came out, someone called for me to come look at a female white German Sheppard. I thought this was cool since not only was she free, and female, but the fact that it happened so quick and she was the same breed.

These are only a few occurences I know, but it's a pretty big deal to me.

I hope that wasn't sarcasm I sensed in your last post.

How then can you be certain that prayer works, if there's not a constant barrage of positive occurences? Sporadic events that you attribute to answered prayers don't really indicate anything supernatural. There is such a thing as 'luck' and 'good fortune'.

Questioner, this is a good question. I hope you don't mind if I throw in my two cents here...

Answered prayer doesn't always constitute positive occurances. Just as an example: one of the common sayings within christian circles is "Don't pray for patience!" Why? Because if you do you will be given many situations that will try your patience until you learn to be patient. However, such situations are evident every day in most peoples lives. I'm not discrediting that God gives circumstances to try one's patience though.

Personally, I don't believe in luck or good fortune. It's the nature of the beast I guess with what I believe. I believe good things happen, as well as bad. A lot of times if people will take a look at the circumstances leading up to the end result they will find there was a cause in there somewhere. You know the old saying: You reap what you sow...

Oops, getting a little off track there. Anyway, I have experienced answered prayer at times, and at other times I haven't. I'm sure many who don't believe in the same manner as I could easily say that's bologna! It just happened to be that you wanted this thing and it happened, so you were lucky. Ahhh, however when one has experienced it first hand it looks much different than it would to those who haven't.

Let's say you've been in a major car wreck that disabled you for awhile. You got in the accident because you were in a huge hurry to get to work and weren't paying attention when you tried to change lanes. After recovering you will probably be much more careful than before. However to a 16 yr old who just got his drivers licence your situation is pretty irrelevant. You could tell him 100 times to pay attention to what he is doing. Look before he changes lanes... ect... but to him this is pure foolishness because he believe's he's indestructable... Just because it happened to you doesn't mean it will happen to him, right? He hasn't experienced being in the hospital and struggling for months to recover so in a way concerning that he's got tunnel vision. Do you see what I'm saying?

I'm familiar with that saying. I find it somewhat ironic that praying to improve your spiritual virtues is warned against for the sake of preserving your worldly possessions, whereas praying for worldly things is encouraged, to the detriment of your spiritual virtue.

Yes, but don't you find it odd that the 'good things' are always attributed to answered prayers, while the 'bad things' always seem to be attributed to some spiritual flaw, or moral deficit of the victim?

Nonsense. These things happen to people every day, those that profess faith in your god, and those that don't. The only difference between them and you is that you lay it at the feet of some unseeable entity whereas everyone else just attributes it to good fortune.

It looks different only because you're glancing at it with your faith-colored glasses.

Yep. I'm not sure why you're explaining it out this way, but I understand perfectly what you're saying.

djjd62 wrote:

pray for some winning lottery numbers for me if you'd be so kind

LOL, that would be nice wouldn't it?

Hey...you're that little green man, aren't you.