Prayer=weakness

Undesirable to whom?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Undesirable to whom?

To me. I find the inability to impose some semblance of rationality on one's wishful thinking is a significant weakness.

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You mean weak minded Brandon?

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Bartikus wrote:

You mean weak minded Brandon?

Okay.

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Doktor S,

If you altered your thesis to.........."prayer is psychologically beneficial for a few but sociologically harmful to many" ............I could agree.

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I happen to be a fan of meditation. I think that it is an efficient way to clear ones mind, to calm one's self, and to allow the brain to plumb the depths of our psyche in order to solve what might otherwise be a perplexing problem.

A number of people have likened meditation to prayer. There may be some similarities, but there is one basic difference that overrides any resemblence of one to another. That is, with prayer, you are looking outside of yourself for guidance. With meditation, the answers that you are looking for may possibly be found within yourself.

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Brandon9000 wrote:

Bartikus wrote:
You mean weak minded Brandon?

Okay.

Do you believe a person by nature is compensated for their weaknesses?

Like a blind person being able to hear better than most.

Can one weakness in a person's mind bring forth a strength we do not yet realize?

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Brandon9000 wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
Undesirable to whom?

To me. I find the inability to impose some semblance of rationality on one's wishful thinking is a significant weakness.

And that's fine, for YOU. Brandon, I think this is my biggest problem with the believing/non-believing argument. It has not been a debate about the facts as we each see facts. It seems to be an argument about who is right or who is wrong.

I have no problem with you or anyone else not believing in prayer, religion, faith, etc. This is purely a personal decision. Religion just doesn't seem to be for everyone. The problem I do have is that merely because someone believes differently, they are labeled (happens on all sides) as well....undesirable in some fashion.

Tolerance is often spoken of on these threads, yet so many (me included) have shown intolerance toward one thing/or person or another. So, this brings us to what? Hypocrisy.

I no longer cringe when someone calls me a hypocrite because if I accuse anyone of commiting a wrong, I am accusing myself also because I have that beam in my eye. I have been up most of the night doing a lot of thinking. In the past few days quite a lot has happened on A2K.

It seems that the "us vs. them" attitude has grown tremendously. Many posters have pointed this out. Why? I'm not sure. I could guess or I could state an opinion. But, that is not the point. The point is we can all change this. The only part of that "we" that can change anything is "I". I can only change myself. I can change the way I behave, post, etc. I cannot change anyone else's behavior.

Where is this going? Hopefully, toward a better understanding of each other. I guess because believing/non-believing is such a personal issue to everyone it's hard not to let personal feelings get mixed up with facts. I completely understand how difficult it must be for someone who does not believe to be puzzled, dumbfounded, shocked, etc., because it seems that logic and reasoning are the more important issue. For those that do believe, (speaking for myself) I find it very difficult to understand how those that don't believe can't just accept the fact that we just differ on this and leave it at that. I don't mean end the discussion. I mean end the labeling. Again, this is done on all sides so please do not take it as pointing a finger.

I have had contact with quite a few on A2K in the S&R forum and have been at odds with them. However, some of those same people have been the ones to give me the most objective and best advice in another forum. So, I know it is possible for us all to put aside certain things and get along and have meaningful discussions. I don't think anyone is devoid of feeling, compassion, etc., just because they do not believe. I sometimes think that those that do not believe feel this is the case. Perhaps there are some preconceived notions on all sides about the other side? Maybe this is where we need to start? Toss out those preconceived notions and deal with the person behind the post as an equal. Sure, I'm not as intelligent as most posters on these forums. I don't have the debating skills so many possess. I wish I did because I know it is frustrating to others.

Well, enough rambling. I just kind of wanted to get this off my chest. I am hoping today will bring a new perspective to all of us and we can get back to discussing issues and exchanging thoughts and ideas with as little harm to each other as possible.

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Bartikus wrote:

Doktor S wrote:
What I am saying is that prayer is not only counterproductive, it is also psychologically unhealthy because it is self deceptive.

Why is it unhealthy, counterproductive, and self deceptive? What are the reasons to believe this?

Well, I just answered your first question;It is psychologically unhealthy because it immerses one in self deception. It is self deceptive because you are convincing yourself of something that is patently false. (or at least so improbable as to be laughable)
It is counterproductive because in so doing, you alleviate the anxiety that drives you to actually do something about it, and expect that something may be done for you instead by mystical forces. It is further unhealthy that perceived 'good' things that happen to you are acredited to this imaginary force, often overlooking where the credit is ACTUALLY due (most often oneself)

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fresco wrote:

Doktor S,

If you altered your thesis to.........."prayer is psychologically beneficial for a few but sociologically harmful to many" ............I could agree.

Cool. I agree with the latter, but not the former.
I see living in a fantasy world as a form of insanity.

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Doktor S,

Just because those things apply in your life does not mean they apply in others' lives. You seem to be deciding for mankind (especially those that believe) what is sane, rational, etc. Who are you to decide this for anyone? Who is anyone to decide this for anyone else?

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Are you trying to say there is no such thing as insanity?

Tell me, what do you know about psychology?

Psychology just so happens to be one of my many fields of study.

As usual, you take an egalitarian luke warm 'nothing is better than anything' stance.

I suppose I would too if I held the fantastical beliefs that you do.

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Doktor S wrote:

Are you trying to say there is no such thing as insanity?

Tell me, what do you know about psychology?

Psychology just so happens to be one of my many fields of study.

As usual, you take an egalitarian luke warm 'nothing is better than anything' stance.

I suppose I would too if I held the fantastical beliefs that you do.

You know, I keep trying to have a civil conversation with you and ask you questions. But you just keep smarting back at me. Whatever. So, you're a Satanist! Big Whoop! You know it all! Another big whoop!

I pray to God that I never get to the point that I think I have all the answers.

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http://www.sntp.net/chisholm.htm

http://www.sntp.net/psychology_definition.html

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Momma Angel wrote:

You know, I keep trying to have a civil conversation with you and ask you questions. But you just keep smarting back at me. Whatever. So, you're a Satanist! Big Whoop! You know it all! Another big whoop!

I pray to God that I never get to the point that I think I have all the answers.

If you respond in that way then you may have already arrived there.

There is never a reason to respond to those posts, especially once you see how angry their responses afterwards will make you feel. Let it go.

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Sturgis wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:

You know, I keep trying to have a civil conversation with you and ask you questions. But you just keep smarting back at me. Whatever. So, you're a Satanist! Big Whoop! You know it all! Another big whoop!

I pray to God that I never get to the point that I think I have all the answers.
If you respond in that way then you may have already arrived there.

There is never a reason to respond to those posts, especially once you see how angry their responses afterwards will make you feel. Let it go.

Sturgis,

It's gone. Thank you.

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Hang in there MommaAngel...it's a bumpy ride.

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Sturgis wrote:

Hang in there MommaAngel...it's a bumpy ride.

I think I need a new seatbelt!

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Doktor S wrote:

Bartikus wrote:
Doktor S wrote:
What I am saying is that prayer is not only counterproductive, it is also psychologically unhealthy because it is self deceptive.

Why is it unhealthy, counterproductive, and self deceptive? What are the reasons to believe this?

Well, I just answered your first question;It is psychologically unhealthy because it immerses one in self deception. It is self deceptive because you are convincing yourself of something that is patently false. (or at least so improbable as to be laughable)
It is counterproductive because in so doing, you alleviate the anxiety that drives you to actually do something about it, and expect that something may be done for you instead by mystical forces. It is further unhealthy that perceived 'good' things that happen to you are acredited to this imaginary force, often overlooking where the credit is ACTUALLY due (most often oneself)

Patently false....then improbable.

Did you once believe in an almighty God?

Do you always take the credit for every good thing that happens to you?

How about the bad?

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Doktor S,

A straight question. Who is or what is "Satan" ?

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Prayer=weakness

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