Prayer=weakness

Patently false....then improbable.

Did you once believe in an almighty God?

Do you always take the credit for every good thing that happens to you?

How about the bad?

Doktor S,

A straight question. Who is or what is "Satan" ?

Did you once believe in an almighty God?

No. I have found the idea of imaginary friend worship to be perplexing from a very young age.

Then how can you know this?

It is counterproductive because in so doing, you alleviate the anxiety that drives you to actually do something about it, and expect that something may be done for you instead by mystical forces.

Not everyone who prays...does so for their own behalf.

Not every prayer is one of material benefit.

Not all that is prayed for can be acted upon and in actuality it is when a person has no power over a situation that a person is most compelled to pray.

Have you ever been in a situation That you were powerless over?

The Satanist realizes that man, and the action and reaction of the universe, is responsible for everything, and doesn't mislead himself into thinking that someone cares. No longer will we sit back and accept "fate" without doing anything about it, just because it says so in Chapter such and such, Psalm so and so - and that's that! The Satanist knows that praying does absolutely no good - in fact, it actually lessens the chance of success, for the devoutly
religious too often sit back complacently and pray for a situation which, if they were to do something about it on their own, could be accomplished much quicker!

The Satanist shuns terms such as "hope" and "prayer" as they are indicative of apprehension. If we hope and pray for something to come about, we will not act in a positive way which will make it happen. The Satanist, realizing that anything he gets is of his own doing, takes
command of the situation instead of praying to God for it to happen. Positive thinking and positive action add up to results.

I have not seen any definitive correlation between people who "hope and pray", and people who do not, in terms of their material success, at least in the business or political worlds. Show me this definitive correlation.

In fact, I assert you can make a valid argument that people who "hope and pray" have a higher chance of political success (at least in today's world) and I offer as initial proof, most of the more recent US presidents and higher US political figures.

Where is the evidence that "hope and prayer" is "indicative of apprehension" at least in the business or political worlds?

You are asking for evidence of assertions not made.

Again, the quoted text says nothing of 'business/political success'.

In terms of evidence in general terms, there are volumes of psychological texts and papers speaking of the ills of self deception and delusional behavior.

Bartikus wrote:

Doktor S wrote:

What I am saying is that prayer is not only counterproductive, it is also psychologically unhealthy because it is self deceptive.

Why is it unhealthy, counterproductive, and self deceptive? What are the reasons to believe this?

Well, I just answered your first question;It is psychologically unhealthy because it immerses one in self deception. It is self deceptive because you are convincing yourself of something that is patently false. (or at least so improbable as to be laughable)
It is counterproductive because in so doing, you alleviate the anxiety that drives you to actually do something about it, and expect that something may be done for you instead by mystical forces. It is further unhealthy that perceived 'good' things that happen to you are acredited to this imaginary force, often overlooking where the credit is ACTUALLY due (most often oneself)

What would you think to prayer that does work?

Which in my case...it usually does...and I don't ask for little unimportant things...such as a new purse with matching shoes.

Would you think it mere coincidence? Positive energy? Or do you even think there is energy? Since you can't see it...

I believe in God...yet I know he lives within me too. There's no question about it.

What would you think to prayer that does work?

Which in my case...it usually does...and I don't ask for little unimportant things...such as a new purse with matching shoes.

Would you think it mere coincidence? Positive energy? Or do you even think there is energy? Since you can't see it...

I believe in God...yet I know he lives within me too. There's no question
about it.

Chumly.
I see your point and I will have to concede it, my opinions in this matter are based on study, experience and human psychology.
I don't think I could produce the evidence you are asking of me, as the only evidence that could support people that pray being less successful in a buisness forum than theists would be a statistical annalysis. This is problematic.
Most people 'identify' (at least in north america) as 'christian', But I would say most don't pray or even really devote any thought to what it means to be 'christian';ie, they identify that way both because they feel they are supposed to, and they have not given much critical thought to the subject.
So on these grounds I don't feel such a survey would be useful.

real life wrote:

When I pray and I receive what I have asked for, often something completely beyond my influence or control, I don't think I can describe that as counterproductive. Not at all.

Psychologically harmful? Hardly. It's actually quite the opposite.

So you claim. But it is undesirable to believe in a magical, imaginary protector because you can't distinguish between what you wish to be true and what the evidence suggests.

It is on clear record that there are and have been a substantial number of very successful businessman who were quite religious (and hence one can well argue, pray). I need not produce statistical evidence to substantiate my point because LeVay did not say that some arbitrary percentage of (for example) businessman were diminished by prayer he made a blanket statement: "If we hope and pray for something to come about, we will not act in a positive way which will make it happen."

In the political arena it seems rather clear that many US politicians spout references to god with clockwork regularity, so I feel safe to say that prayer (which we may well assume goes hand in hand with all the god spouting and church going politicians are known for) has at the least not harmed their political careers, and arguably has been of substantial benefit.

Another popular example of a successful group that are well know to have spiritual and/or religious leanings and hence to be active in prayer are musicians and artists. And again one need not produce statistical evidence to substantiate, but if you are an art or music lover, my point should be made here as well.

And just for chuckles, as it fits all of LeVay's criteria for success, we have the religious leaders, many of whom can clearly be called successes by whatever reasonable set of terms you wish to assign them given the context.

am in no way making any claims as to the efficacy of prayer, nor do I need to in order to make it abundantly clear that LeVay is wrong when he says "If we hope and pray for something to come about, we will not act in a positive way which will make it happen." and such similar claims.

The Satanist realizes that man, and the action and reaction of the universe, is responsible for everything, and doesn't mislead himself into thinking that someone cares.

No longer will we sit back and accept "fate" without doing anything about it, just because it says so in Chapter such and such, Psalm so and so - and that's that!

The Satanist knows that praying does absolutely no good - in fact, it actually lessens the chance of success, for the devoutly religious too often sit back complacently and pray for a situation which, if they were to do something about it on their own, could be accomplished much quicker!

The Satanist shuns terms such as "hope" and "prayer" as they are indicative of apprehension. If we hope and pray for something to come about, we will not act in a positive way which will make it happen.

The Satanist, realizing that anything he gets is of his own doing, takes command of the situation instead of praying to God for it to happen.

Positive thinking and positive action add up to results.

As I already explained why such a statistical analysis wouldn't be useful or even really possible, your claim stands as unprovable as mine. The difference being, mine is based in psychologically proven behavior.

Now it seem's like you are trying to 'win' this conversation rather than have it. If you honestly can't see motivation for ANY politician in the USA to claim some sort of religious affiliation than you don't know politics very well. It's about PR, not truth.

Ok, ball's in your court. Let's see evidence that more successful musicians and artists have imaginary friends and pray to them than those that don't. Why do you feel this point must stand without evidence?

I forward that being a 'religious leader' is more about how others see you than how you really are. Do you think ALL of them buy the BS that puts food onto their table? I have serious doubts.