Prayer=weakness

Assuming I concur that prayer is (or must be) a form of self deception (which for the moment I neither agree or disagree with) where are your arguments to demonstrate that self deception is always a net negative under all circumstances?

Hummm...
I know it through faith.



Just kidding!
Personal opinion based on my studies of human nature.
I find intellectual honesty with ones self to be important.

Personally I agree with you. But for fun. I'll provide two examples of self deception being a net benefit, and one example of self deception being a net neutral.

Example one of self deception being a net benefit - Two people have identical terminal cancer:

Sicko #1 researches all the scientific papers and determines not only is there no chance with today's technology, but there is nothing in the pipeline close enough to aid, so instead of suffering a horrific 10 year decline physically emotionally and financially he decides instead to end his own life. A pragmatic and non-deceptive rational choice

Sicko #2 researches all the scientific papers and decides to deceive himself as to the reality of the situation and hope for a cure. Unknown to most everyone a tropical toad's skin venom is being experimented on in a lab in the former republic of Toadiniastan. It comes to the researchers attention that the genetic strain of rats that have a predisposition to cancer are remarkable cancer free when exposed to the little toady's venom. Sicko #2 happens to be a Toadiniastaninain and has gone there for a final teary family reunion. He perchance meets up with the toad researcher while getting exceedingly drunk at the local toady bar and talks the researcher into being a human Guinness pig or more aptly Guinness rat, and is soon cancer free!!

Example two of self deception being a net benefit - The prayerful businessman:

A business man convinces himself if he prays daily, it will aid his success. He carries this prayer induced confidence and self assurance with him in his daily business life and he uses this "self-realization through prayer" to take business courses and rely on his judgment to make the correct financial decisions. In moments of lucidity he confides in his close associates that although prayer has not improved his business acumen per se it has given him the backbone and substance to take advantage of his acumen, because at his core, his is a rather meek and retiring individual, despite his outward boldness and drive.

Example one of self deception being a net neutral - Doctor S is the last surviving non religionist rational member of the human species:

The entire world has become fervent Christian, due to a special chemical that Dubya's scientific cronies put in the drinking water. This chemical not only permanently activates the God spot, but genetically and permanently alters all present and future people to be idiotically and fervently Christian.

And yet Doctor S still posts on S&R able2know.com in the hopes that someone will listen, even though all his non religionist rational faculties tell him his efforts will come to naught.

heh great post.

I don't think there is any universals, but their are 'rules'.
Most every rule has exceptions!

Sometimes I feel as though that last example were true.

Good for a chuckle if nothing else.

I agree that, for you as an autotheist, prayer would indeed be self deception.

For others, I suppose it would depend on who they pray to, in addition to other factors.

Are you trying to say it is less likely that I exist than that invisible and untenable deities exist?
This is part of what I mean by 'self deception'
The rational part of your mind, if it hasn't been totally consumed by brainwashing, must be able to see the absurdity of your position?

I am saying that talking to yourself does no good.

Wake up Dok.

On the contrary, I find internal dialog to be infinitely more useful than dialog with a non existant 3rd party.

Anytime you want to take a shot at proving that God is non-existent, let me know.

God has answered prayer for me on many occasions on matters that I had no control or influence over.

I'll get on that just as soon as you prove the Great Benevolent Spaghetti Monster is non-existent.

Is that something you believe exists? If not, why do you need it proven non-existent?

That the point totally escaped you honestly boggles my mind.

The point that is evident from your post, DS, is that you are completely incapable of defending your premise that God does not exist.

You have put yourself in the position of trying to prove a negative.

Then, as a dodge, you want to pretend that I have stated a negative regarding your Spaghetti Monster, a subject which I did not even address.

I think we all understand the point of this, DS.

In other posts, you have described yourself as god. There are definite drawbacks to believing one's own propaganda however.

You cannot even tell us for certain how many hairs are in your nose.

So, I suggest that you refrain from issuing any supposedly definitive statements regarding the non-existence of God, since you obviously do not possess the requisite omniscience to attempt the task.

Ya, you still don't get it.
First, it was you that suggested proving the nonexistence of something. I attempted to show the uselessness of your reasoning with my joke about the spaghetti monster...hoping you would clue in to the fact that proving a negative is impossible.
That you think the fact something can't be disproven gives it credibility says a thing or two about your reasoning skills.

Yes, I challenged you to prove the non-existence of God when you stated He did not exist.

Did you forget that you said this?