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Mexico wants to dictate US Immigration Policy

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jan, 2006 04:41 pm
Actually, Spain ceded Guam to the United States, and sold the northern remainder to Germany.
Japan boccupied the islands in 1914 and, after World War I, the former German islands were entrusted by the League of Nations to Japanese control.


But that's h i s t o r y, Set, don't try to do it here :wink:
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jan, 2006 04:43 pm
So, Walter, thank you for pointing out that we also stole Guam . . .
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jan, 2006 04:46 pm
JLNobody wrote:
cjhsa says: "The traitors among us want to make this into a complex socio-economic issue. It isn't. "

I say: the chauvinistic ideologues among us say that this is a simple issue. It isn't. I, for one, enjoy the notion that when my roof was scraped off in preparation for a new roof (on a very hot summer day), it may have been done by very cheap Mexican labor (workers who should have been paid more but, nevertheless, were happy to get what they got). I was quite pleased by the price I had to pay. I DON'T KNOW, but I assume that if they were illegal (but honorable hard-working men who risked their lives to come here and WORK, not rob), they and I (and the roofing company) all benefitted.
The xenophobic ideologues, however, suffered from a profound resentment, stemming from their own psychological pseudo-patriotic malaise.


And the fact that they were in all likelihood being exploited and not being paid a fair wage bothers you not at all. And in addition are taking a job from an American citizen also does not bother you.

You got a good deal so what the hell.
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jan, 2006 04:48 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Actually, Spain ceded Guam to the United States, and sold the northern remainder to Germany.
Japan boccupied the islands in 1914 and, after World War I, the former German islands were entrusted by the League of Nations to Japanese control.


But that's h i s t o r y, Set, don't try to do it here :wink:


And we took control of them after we took them from the Japanese after WW2.

The people of those islands are now American citizens.
So,if we stole them,who did we steal them from?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jan, 2006 04:48 pm
Setanta wrote:
So, Walter, thank you for pointing out that we also stole Guam . . .


Embarrassed





Laughing
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Thu 12 Jan, 2006 05:18 pm
au1929 seems to be accusing me of hypocrisy, saying "You got a good deal so what the hell." No, I did say they should have been paid more--and I would have accepted the higher price for the new roof (by the way, I tipped all the Mexicans workers who scraped off the roof--the temperature that day was well above 100 degrees; I was impressed by their fortitude (I've lived in Mexico at least four years and have never seen a "lazy Mexican", except among the rich)--but I did not tip the anglos who had the much easier job of stapling "tiles" on the roof. And I do not think that people who protest the hiring of workers for that job, not to mention cotton picking, were willing to take those jobs at minimum wage pay. Indeed, we all are benefitting in terms of low inflation by the importation of cheap labor.
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Thu 12 Jan, 2006 05:20 pm
Frankly, we cannot come to agreement on such issues. I say TO ARMS!

Or better: the ballot box.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jan, 2006 05:28 pm
Anti-immigration movements are as common in our history as any other form of political party. The "Know-Nothings" were very big before the Civil War, but the party didn't have "legs." Thomas Nast, celebrated as a great political cartoonist and social reformer because of his cartoons attacking Tammany Hall was actually motivated by anti-Irish, anti-Catholic bigotry, which can be seen in other of his cartoons. The modern version of the Ku Klux Klan was reborn in Georgia in the years before the Great War--the original organization was disbanded in 1870--and appealed to "Lilly Whites," which is to say, White Protestants. Anti-Catholic and anti-Jewish rhetoric was important in their original agenda.
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au1929
 
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Reply Thu 12 Jan, 2006 05:29 pm
JLNobody
That is the rub. Sure a citizen does not want to work for slave wages. Why should they. The workers should have been paid the prevailing wage for that job in the area. Which in all likelihoo0d they were not.
They can be likened to scabs who take the job of union workers during a strike.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jan, 2006 05:39 pm
I think there's something to what you say, in this very complex issue. Let's see what better informed members have to say to that. I just wonder why it appears that the individuals who actually want to those jobs are not the ones who are doing the protesting. It appears to be ideologes, like the "English Only" group.
One protester at an English Only rally in my town held up a sign saying "If it was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me." I was tempted to carry a sign in the next protest declaring "If Aramaic was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me." I didn't because I couldn't figure out how to spell "Aramaic."
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jan, 2006 05:39 pm
Setanta
Unless I misunderstand the question or the argument is not against immigration. Just illegal immigration. Regarding the need for labor that should be, if congress would get off their collective duffs, satisfied by both legal immigration and a guest workers program.
The industries that employ most of that labor likes it just they way it is, How else can the exploit these people.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jan, 2006 05:47 pm
I recall that in the Bracero Program workers were chronically cheated, and never received compensation even after going through the correct legal channels.

By the way, I have a friend in Mexico who waited for eleven years to get his green card and finally gave up. This is a guy who has hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in our stock market, has two undergraduate degrees from an American university (from a time when it was easier to do that), and wants to start up a marketing agency here (which is what he was doing successfully in Mexico).
I jokingly told him to consider coming in illegally. He said he couldn't swim and was not desperate enough to brave our desert.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jan, 2006 05:54 pm
I should note that the "Lily White" agenda against Catholics and Jews was directed at immigrants from southern and eastern Europe.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jan, 2006 05:56 pm
Well, Au, my point is simply that there always has been a strong anti-immigrant current in American politics. It has never been strong enough, though to get a party into office. The only difference is that Russian Jews and Polish and Italian Catholics in 1912 were not right across the river from us. You can bet they would have flooded in if they had been.
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au1929
 
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Reply Thu 12 Jan, 2006 06:06 pm
Setanta
No doubt they would have. I would ponit out however, in the early part of the last century there were no restrictions on immigration.

I believe that it was in the early 20's when quotas were imposed.
At that pont many of the would be immigrants ended up in South America.
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jan, 2006 06:43 pm
Another problem with the Bracero Program, JL, is that the job had to be lined up before entering the country. Difficult, unless you are dealing with some sort of labor contractor.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jan, 2006 10:23 pm
How about Home Depot proposing to provide centers for workers to be picked up by contractors. You know Home Depot is concerned for its contractor customers, not for the workers themselves.
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jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jan, 2006 11:05 am
JustWonders wrote:
I heard an interesting fact the other day. You could put all immigrants (from everywhere) in the state of Texas and there'd still be room for more.


For some reason this fact didn't seem all that spectacular to me when I first read it... now I remember why.

Quote:
Did you Know?

The whole world's population could fit in the state of Texas
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jan, 2006 11:46 am
JLNobody wrote:
cjhsa, you ask why Mexico doesn't want them back. It's true that the money Mexican workers send back to their relatives in Mexico is a major source of income for Mexico. But at the same time we need the cheap labor. It's a major hypocrisy that we fuss over the illegality of their "invasion of America" yet we encourage the coyotes to bring them to our farms, hotels, construction sites, roofers, etc. And we tax them and exploit their labor by paying below minimum wage (in many cases). Our governments (fed and state) say they are going to come down on illegal immigrants (and we incorrectly often say immigrants and criminals in the same sentence). At the same time the govs really look the other way. Most border enforcement is mere cosmetics. We should be educating the children of migrant workers who are born here because uneducated people are a menace to society in that they are more likely to get involved in blue collar crimes. But the immigrants come here to work not to steal.
Actually, we need the cheap labor; it's done wonders for our economy. And we need those young people's input into social security. At present we are an old population with not enough people paying into social security to support all the retired elderly.
Our indignation at the influx of Mexicans should be tempered by the knowleldge that we literally stole the southwest from Mexico. In 1848 the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo overnight turned all the Mexicans (living here in their own country) into a minority population of the SW U.S.
The hostility toward illegal immigrants is pure xenophobia, irrational in its ignorance of history. We are all descendants of immigrants (who often came illegally). The only people with the right to indignation are our Native Americans.


I agree with a lot of your post, JL, but most illegals don't pay taxes, so it's not true that they're "paying into social security to support all the retired elderly".

Actually, if they're clever enough to obtain a Social Security number (always illegally, since they're here illegally), they can further defraud the government by maneuvering to receive an Earned Income Tax Credit. (If you doubt any of this, you have only to chat with any Budget Analyst who has ever worked in a border state).

Also, the US has been slammed repeatedly by the Mexican government recently, so I'm not sure it's "pure xenophobia" driving some of the resentment, but perhaps an amazement at the hypocrisy of it all.

I'd like to think that we can all look at both sides of a very complex problem to find the solutions, but I agree with VDH below (who doesn't seem to think those solutions are immediately on the horizon), but nonetheless offers some food for thought:

Quote:
Mi Casa Es Su Casa
America's porous border enables Mexico's misrule.

BY VICTOR DAVIS HANSON
Sunday, January 1, 2006 12:01 a.m. EST

SELMA, Calif.--"Shameful," screams Mexico's President Vicente Fox, about the proposed extension of a security fence along the southern border of the U.S. "Stupid! Underhanded! Xenophobic!" bellowed his foreign secretary, Luis Ernesto Derbez, warning: "Mexico is not going to bear, it is not going to permit, and it will not allow a stupid thing like this wall."

The allusions to the Berlin Wall made by aggrieved Mexican politicians miss the irony: The communists tried to keep their own people in, not illegal aliens out. More embarrassing still, the comparison boomerangs on Mexico, since it, and not the U.S., more resembles East Germany in alienating its own citizens to the point that they flee at any cost. If anything might be termed stupid, underhanded or xenophobic in the illegal immigration debacle, it is the conduct of the Mexican government.

"Stupid" characterizes a government that sits atop vast mineral and petroleum reserves, enjoys a long coastline, temperate climate, rich agricultural plains--and either cannot or will not make the necessary political and economic reforms to feed and house its own people. The election of Vicente Fox, Nafta and cosmetic changes in banking and jurisprudence have not stopped the corruption or stemmed the exodus of millions of Mexicans.

"Underhanded" also sums up the stance of Mexico, masquerading in humanitarian terms the abjectly immoral export of its own dispossessed. Indeed, such cynicism directly protects the status quo in three critical ways. The flight of the poor is Mexico's aberrant version of Fredrick Jackson Turner's safety-valve theory of the frontier. But instead of homesteaders heading west, the impoverished go northward, preferring simply to leave rather than change their government.

Mexico receives between $10 billion and $15 billion in annual remittances from illegal aliens in the U.S., a subsidy that not only masks political failure at home, but comes at great cost to its expatriates abroad. After all, such massive transfers of capital must be made up from somewhere. Poor workers who send half their wages to kin are forced to make do in a high-priced U.S. through two exigencies--they lower their standard of living here while often depending on state and local governments for supplemental housing, education, medical and food aid.

Rarely in the great debate over illegal immigration do we frame the issue in such moral terms: If life back home is improving thanks to money wired back, first-generation Mexican enclaves in the U.S. remain chronically poor, not investing where they live and work.

Mexico senses that the longer its poor are away from Mexico, the more likely they are to grow sentimental about a homeland that they can visit but need not return to. In short, the growing Mexican expatriate community offers valuable political leverage with the U.S. As the politics demand, the community can be characterized either as poor and exploited to shame the U.S., or as successful and industrious to claim credit for the economic boom up north. In our Orwellian world, the welfare of the neglected of Mexico warrants more concern from their government when they are no longer in Mexico.

How did we get to this impasse--where Americans would embrace such a retrograde solution as building a fence, or Mexico would routinely slander its northern neighbor? The answer is the vast size of the illegal population--now over 10 million--and the inability or unwillingness of the U.S. government to sanction employers or deploy sufficient resources to enforce the border. Sheer numbers has evolved the debate far beyond the old "We need labor" and "They have workers," to something like, "Can the U.S. remain a sovereign nation with borders at all?"
With a few thousand crossing illegally each year we could all look the other way. Free-market libertarians could lecture that illegal immigrants toned up the labor market and helped us avoid the demographic stasis that Europe now suffers. Critics of illegal immigration--who complained that their property on the border was vandalized, or that their relatives from India and the Philippines waited patiently while others cut in front of the immigration line--were written off as racists and worse.

Americans liked their food cooked, yards kept and dishes washed cheaply--as long as the invisible workers with little education, less English and no legal status stayed invisible, and as long as illegal immigration could not directly be linked to plummeting public school test scores in the Southwest or 15,000 prison inmates in the California penal system. But somewhere around the year 2000 a tipping point was reached. The dialogue changed when the number of illegals outnumbered the population of entire states. There also began a moral transformation in the controversy, with the ethical tables turned on the proponents of de facto open borders.

Employers were no longer seen as helping either the U.S. economy or poor immigrants, but rather as being party to exploitation that made a mockery of the law, ossified the real minimum wage, undermined unions and hurt poorer American citizens. The American consumer discovered that illegal immigration was a fool's bargain--reaping the benefits of cheap labor upfront, but paying far more later on through increased subsidies for often ill-housed and poorly educated laborers who had no benefits.

Nor is the evolving debate framed so much any more as left-versus-right, but as the more privileged at odds with the middle and lower classes. On one side are the elite print media, the courts and a few politicians fronting for employer and ethnic interests; on the other are the far more numerous, and raucous, talk-radio listeners, bloggers and cable news watchers, the ballot propositions, and populist state legislators who better reflect the angry pulse of the country.

Those who own farms and run hotels, who hire nannies and housecleaners, who head Washington lobbying organizations, and who staff the Mexican ministries, really do need the millions of illegals that in so many different ways serve their needs. But the American poor who wish to organize for better wages; the reformers in Mexico who need pressure on the Mexican government; and the middle class, which pay the taxes and tries to obey the letter of the law, are increasingly against illegal immigration. And they no longer much worry over being slurred, by their illiberal critics, as nativist.

So the world is upside down. The once liberal notion of ignoring illegal immigration is now seen as cynically illiberal. And taking drastic steps to enforce the law--including something seemingly as absurd as a vast fence--is now seen as more ethical than the current subterfuge that undermines the legal system of the nation.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007751
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jan, 2006 05:53 pm
JustWonders,

I don't know if you statistics to back up your claim that most "illegal immigrants" don't pay taxes. I know that anti-immigrant propaganda states this.

But my experience paints a different picture.

In my community most of the undocumented workers that I know work in one of two ways.

If you work under a fake SSN (usually this is a real SSN of a different person) you pay taxes.

Many undocumented workers use these numbers to work in service industries (i.e. restaurants, hotels and commercial cleaning services). These workers have income withheld just like you and I and file taxes anually. They actally pay more since they are very cautious about taking deductions that you or I take for granted. They also have Social Security withheld (which they are not eligable for).

Other people I know work in jobs like housecleaning or as nannies. These jobs involve informal arrangements between a private employer and an employee. Many people I know get ITINs (taxpayer IDs widely used by undocumented immigrants) from the IRS and are at least as diligent paying taxes as any American who is self-employed.

I know accountants and lawyers who volunteer time helping this group of workers file their taxes correctly and fairly.

Of course a way for these workers to become legal above-board employees would be best.

But broad pronouncements that illegal workers don't pay taxes are, from my direct experience, false.
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