Mexico wants to dictate US Immigration Policy

fbaezer wrote:

roger wrote:
I demand documentation of undocumented American workers in Mexico.

The U.S. Embassy in Mexico estimates that there are some 600,000 American expatriates residing in Mexico. The Democratic and Republican Party representatives in Mexico both estimate over 1 million U.S. citizens qualified to vote in Mexico.

Link

Great, but qualified to vote does not exactly indicate an undocumented status. Also not sure it indicates a legal right to work.

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i'd imagined that means qualified to vote in the U.S., not in Mexico. Registered dems and reps.

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fbaezer wrote:

On language skills:

Totally agree with Dagmaraka. And jp and ebrownp can both be correct, even if there are not "regional dialects" of Spanish in Mexico.

Some Mexican migrants lose fastly their ability to speak Spanish correctly, while not learning English properly. It happens to Cubans and Puerto Ricans, too, so it's not "genetic". Others, maintain for a generation or two a good standard in Spanish and become completely bilingual. A generation later they are monolingual in English, and speak only bits of Spanish (like the descendants of Germans, Italians, Swedish, Ukranians and such did). It's also a matter of education.

I'm not sure where genetics came into the conversation but I assure you that I never raised the issue.

I'm far from an expert on language, and perhaps I misunderstood him and what he was actually saying was that they are illiterate in Spanish (as opposed to speaking a dialect of), but from what my friend tells me, whether they are speaking a regional dialect or not... they are not speaking proper Spanish and cannot read or write proper Spanish.

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You could be right, dag, but the distinction remains between legal, possibly with bond having been posted, and illegal, undocumented. The legality is more an issue than where and how they vote.

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I can tell you, from experience Roger, that there are several hundred thousand Americans living "illegally" in Mexico.
The article calculates them at about 400,000, if I can interpret things.

Some undocumented Americans I know do work, as English teachers in stablished English schools.
Some were students (we had our share of Vietnam defectors) who simply stayed. Or late-time hippies.
But the majority are retirees who came as tourists, never changed their status, bought property and remained.

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right, jp, that only documents the trend. but it is true of all immigrants - no matter what origin or how well educated the first generation of immigrants is or was.

rog, you're right. i'd imagine it is way easier to work in mexico than in the u.s.. you can trust me that it's hell to get papers - days and days of bureaucratic hassle during which NOBODY is nice to you and you're treated like vermin. And I have a PhD (almost), and an employer that wants me, armed to my teeth with recommendations and ovations. i can't imagine how it must be for somebody who's poor, doesn't speak the language well and is looked down upon because of his/her origin.

if i was a poor mexican trying to feed my family, what would i do? perhaps i'd be muddling through all my life in some village, and perhaps (and i can well imagine that) i would fall for the vision of american dream and cross the border to increase the ranks of illegal immigrants. then i would probably end up in some immigrant neighborhood that is just as poor, ridden with crime and loan sharks and very likely get involved in some of that, too. i just can't put the blame on immigrants themselves. i see how it's problematic, but i just don't get the hatred or adrenalin rush they cause.
we have gypsies. they are viewed and treated very much the same, in fact much worse. even educated and otherwise tolerant people despise them for criminality rate among their groups is sky-rocketing. but is it that hard to imagine where they come from and what my own life could possibly be like if i was born in an isolated ghetto ridden with alcoholism, drug abuse, welfare dependence...etc? it's a vicious circle.

i may sound like a raving naive peace-loving lunatic. i'm actually not. i recognize the need for regulated immigration control and how complex and immense an area that is in the states. but without a bit of empathy and understanding (and this should come from the administration) it seems that leaders are just purposely pouring gasoline into fire to feed on tensions in place. it's beneficial for getting votes so far, although the hispanic population in the u.s. (u.s. citizens) is growing faster than any other and the tune might change.... any guesses in this direction?

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jpinMilwaukee wrote:

I have a friend that teaches in a charter school that consists mostly of students with hispanic origins. He himself was born and educated in Mexico and came to the US legally many years ago with a college education. He loves to talk of the days when Mexico City was a beautiful thriving city full of wealth and culture.

jp - Mexico City is probably still a beautiful, thriving city full of wealth and culture. The problem is, it's only enjoyed by the ruling class. :wink:

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fbaezer wrote:

I can tell you, from experience Roger, that there are several hundred thousand Americans living "illegally" in Mexico.
The article calculates them at about 400,000, if I can interpret things.

Some undocumented Americans I know do work, as English teachers in stablished English schools.
Some were students (we had our share of Vietnam defectors) who simply stayed. Or late-time hippies.
But the majority are retirees who came as tourists, never changed their status, bought property and remained.

That's interesting.

A question for roger, woiyo and cj...

If Mexico threatened to arrest and jail these illegal retirees took property and any earnings, would/should the United States protest?

(Of course Mexico understands that these American illegals are good for the economy and would even contemplate something so vindictively stupid. If only we could say the same about the US House Republicans.)

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ebrown_p wrote:

Setanta wrote:
JP's situation is inidicative of something few people seem to recognize--Hispanic immigrants, whether or not legally entered into this country, are everywhere in this country.

Acknowledging the risk of correcting Setanta on a point of history, but I believe Hispanic immigrants were here before the English speaking ones.

West of the Pecos, and south of the Bitterroot, certainly. Which geographic locus describes neither Wisconsin, where JP resides, Ohio, where i resided for 18 years, nor Michigan, where CJ now resides . . .

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I am an American visiting Mexico...

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ebrown_p wrote:

fbaezer wrote:
I can tell you, from experience Roger, that there are several hundred thousand Americans living "illegally" in Mexico.
The article calculates them at about 400,000, if I can interpret things.

Some undocumented Americans I know do work, as English teachers in stablished English schools.
Some were students (we had our share of Vietnam defectors) who simply stayed. Or late-time hippies.
But the majority are retirees who came as tourists, never changed their status, bought property and remained.

That's interesting.

A question for roger, woiyo and cj...

If Mexico threatened to arrest and jail these illegal retirees took property and any earnings, would/should the United States protest?

(Of course Mexico understands that these American illegals are good for the economy and would even contemplate something so vindictively stupid. If only we could say the same about the US House Republicans.)

That is interesting, fbaezer, and thanks for the direct response.

Of course not, ebrown, if they (Mexico) acted in accordance with Mexican law.

Dag, in the same position, I might very well do the same. That is, I would probably weigh the benefits against the probablity of being caught, and the consequences of being caught. Right now the probability looks only fair, and the consequences seem minor. You are returned to square one, shake the dice, and try again.

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cjhsa, you ask why Mexico doesn't want them back. It's true that the money Mexican workers send back to their relatives in Mexico is a major source of income for Mexico. But at the same time we need the cheap labor. It's a major hypocrisy that we fuss over the illegality of their "invasion of America" yet we encourage the coyotes to bring them to our farms, hotels, construction sites, roofers, etc. And we tax them and exploit their labor by paying below minimum wage (in many cases). Our governments (fed and state) say they are going to come down on illegal immigrants (and we incorrectly often say immigrants and criminals in the same sentence). At the same time the govs really look the other way. Most border enforcement is mere cosmetics. We should be educating the children of migrant workers who are born here because uneducated people are a menace to society in that they are more likely to get involved in blue collar crimes. But the immigrants come here to work not to steal.
Actually, we need the cheap labor; it's done wonders for our economy. And we need those young people's input into social security. At present we are an old population with not enough people paying into social security to support all the retired elderly.
Our indignation at the influx of Mexicans should be tempered by the knowleldge that we literally stole the southwest from Mexico. In 1848 the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo overnight turned all the Mexicans (living here in their own country) into a minority population of the SW U.S.
The hostility toward illegal immigrants is pure xenophobia, irrational in its ignorance of history. We are all descendants of immigrants (who often came illegally). The only people with the right to indignation are our Native Americans.

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Quote:

Our indignation at the influx of Mexicans should be tempered by the knowleldge that we literally stole the southwest from Mexico. In 1848 the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo overnight turned all the Mexicans (living here in their own country) into a minority population of the SW U.S.
The hostility toward illegal immigrants is pure xenophobia, irrational in its ignorance of history. We are all descendants of immigrants (who often came illegally). The only people with the right to indignation are our Native Americans.

Stole is not the right word.
Most of the SW US (except the Gadsen Purchase) was ceded by Mexico after the Mexican-American war.
We took it as spoils of war.
For years before the war,Santa Fe NM had closer relations with the US then Mexico City.
There was a regular trade route from St.Louis to Santa Fe.

If you are going to claim that we are ALL descendants of immigrants,then you must include the native Americans also.
After all,they did come from Asia originally.

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The traitors among us want to make this into a complex socio-economic issue. It isn't.

Migrant, green carded workers, and immigration is a complex issue.

ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL and there is no grey area. They don't belong here and NOBODY in their right mind wants them here except they themselves.

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Speaking of US citizens residing in Mexico.
fbaezer wrote

Quote:

But the majority are retirees who came as tourists, never changed their status, bought property and remained.

The big difference between them and the illegal's in the US is that they are not a drain on the economy and in fact add to it. And of course do not get involved in crime
I have no doubt they are welcomed with open arms. Do you imagine that if they were as the Mexican illegal's in the US a drain on the economy, the Mexican government would tolerate them for one minute.

Regarding the question as to whether they are criminals or not? Of course they are.

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Mysterious man: "We took it as spoils of war."

That's what I said, "we stole it."

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JLNobody wrote:

Mysterious man: "We took it as spoils of war."

That's what I said, "we stole it."

Then using your logic,we "stole" the original 13 colonies,we "stole" the southern states after the civil war,we "stole" the Mariana's,Guam,Tinian,Saipan,and other islands in the Pacific after WW1.

Is that correct?
After all,we got them after a war.

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cj, that is not quite true. many a firm, employer, farm, whathaveyou, will gladly take the cheap illegal workers over more expensive documented ones. in some industries there often is no other supply than this kind of labor. so yes, a problem, but no- it's not true that nobody in their right mind doesn't want them here. demand-supply....so it goes.

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"We" were already in the original colonies, we "stole" them from the Amerindians. The Southern states likely would have agreed with your assessment after 1865, but not after they ran off the carpet baggers, circa 1871. the Pacific islands to which you refer (and Guam and Saipan are parts of the Marianas, not separate from them)--of which Saipan was not one, were mandated protectorates assigned to Japan and the United States by the League of Nations.

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cjhsa says: "The traitors among us want to make this into a complex socio-economic issue. It isn't. "

I say: the chauvinistic ideologues among us say that this is a simple issue. It isn't. I, for one, enjoy the notion that when my roof was scraped off in preparation for a new roof (on a very hot summer day), it may have been done by very cheap Mexican labor (workers who should have been paid more but, nevertheless, were happy to get what they got). I was quite pleased by the price I had to pay. I DON'T KNOW, but I assume that if they were illegal (but honorable hard-working men who risked their lives to come here and WORK, not rob), they and I (and the roofing company) all benefitted.
The xenophobic ideologues, however, suffered from a profound resentment, stemming from their own psychological pseudo-patriotic malaise.

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Mexico wants to dictate US Immigration Policy

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