Does God Exist?

Over the years, I have heard many variations of this particular story, usually coming from a person who is very adamant about his/her beliefs. All I can say, is that if these beliefs are what keeps your head on straight, and gives your life some meaning, go for it.

Understand though, that there are many other people who have not "walked in your shoes", and cannot relate to your beliefs. I think that one has to have real empathy for other human beings, and realize that each of us have different views of life.

How do you know that? And if it is true, why do you suppose that God fails to help so many other people, regardless of their faith and prayers?

Pascal's Wager has been refuted so many times that I hesitate to post this, but since you are new to A2k you may not have seen it.

Pascal's Wager is a false dichotomy that ignores other possibilities, and it does not take into account the probabilities that each premise is true or the cost of false belief both to the individual and society.

If there are many gods and you believe in the wrong one, you lose. The odds aren't even 50-50, since there are literally thousands of gods. If you assume that the odds of a god existing are proportional to the number of followers, there is only a 1 in 4 chance that the Christian god exists.

If there is no god and you believe in one and become a celibate nun or priest, you lose the evolutionary sweepstakes.

If there is no god and you send your life savings to a TV evangelist, you lose. If you bequeath all your money to a church, your children lose.

If there is no god and you devote your life to apologetics instead of finding a cure for cancer, society loses.

If there is no god but you enslave and persecute people of other races and beliefs because you believe it is God's Will, everyone loses.

If there is no god but people are afraid to question anything for fear of offending their imaginary god, mankind fails to progress.

If there is no god and men fight religious wars over whose god is superior, everyone loses.

If there is no god but alien beings are testing us to see who is rational and logical enough to be invited to join their enlightened society, the people who reject false beliefs in imaginary supernatural deities win and the theists lose.

If there is no god or paradise and this is the only life you get, the person who lives it to the fullest wins, while those who forego sensual pleasures because of religion-induced guilt lose.

If there is an omniscient and rational god and you honestly don't believe in him, he will understand your reasons and forgive you. You still win, but not as much.

If people are reincarnated until they "get it right," you will eventually win no matter what you believe in this life, whether or not a god exists.

If there is a god who is testing us to see who can discern truth even when pressured to believe myths and threatened with eternal punishment if they don't kowtow, the person who correctly determines which religious dogmas to reject wins.

But as Frank Apisa often said: we just don't know. I think that those who feel compelled to make a god-or-not choice without exploring the myriad other possibilities are the real losers.

Well said. I think that the religionists have boxed themselves into a corner, depriving themselves of the joy of exploration of ideas.

While I understand where you are coming from phoenix, I am not a religionist. I claim no labels of any kind. I am merely someone who believes in the existance of God.



How do I know I wouldn't be here? Because I know the path I was on. It was one of utter self-destruction. I was an alcoholic who had seen nothing but misery her entire life, from the moment of conception until several years after I had gotten "saved". Yes, I still experienced misery while wearing the label of "saved". Raped at the ages of 5, 18, twice when I was 20, and almost a fifth time when I was 22. I was angry, bitter, abandoned, felt unloved, and saw absolutely no point in life at all. I spent four days in the hospital after the first time I was raped when I was 20 because I truly believed the world would be better off without me and took 3/4 a bottle of extra strength tylenol to rid the world of me. That's just a very small "piece" of the story to give you an idea of the life I lived previously.

It took God YEARS to break down the walls I had put up to keep Him out. YEARS. And all the meanwhile "christians" were pointing their fingers at me condemning me for smoking, condemning me for not speaking in tongues, condemning me for being different, because they had absolutely no concept of the daily pain I lived in. If I had not seen something different about God, if I had not been able to muster up even the slightest ounce of hope that maybe, just maybe there was something better out there than this life I was living, I would be dead. I would have either put myself in a postion where I was beaten, raped, and then killed (which was the pattern of my life at the time) or I would have saved someone the trouble and done it myself.

Why do I suppose that God fails to help so many other people, regardless of their faith and prayers? This is a fair question. One I hope I can help to shed some light on. Let's look at it from this perspective:

Why do you suppose an alcoholic that doesn't seek help continues in their lifestyle of alcoholism? Because they don't seek help does that mean no one really wants to help them? Because they don't attend "AA" meetings does that mean those "AA" meetings don't exist? To that person those meetings don't exist simply because they don't go to them. However they do exist for those who attend. On the other hand let's say that person does say, "Man, I have a problem, I need help." while they down another 40 oz. If they never actually get up and find the help they need will they change? That person can change their mind and have "faith" that those meetings exist, however if they never get up and act on that by going to the meetings the help they need is still out of their reach.

If you fall into a ditch and break both your legs, but every time someone comes by and offers you help you scream at them "Leave me alone!!" How are you going to get out of that ditch? Yet people do this with God all the time. I know I did. They want help, but not the kind that requires any sacrifice on their part. They yell, "God help me!" but when He tries they push Him away because it doesn't come in the form or fashion they are expecting. I did this too. We block people out to protect ourselves from being hurt again, but what we don't realize is we are hurting ourselves worse in the end because of the isolation of living within our own little walls. I asked myself this question many many times in my life:

"Why would a so called "loving God" allow me, someone He supposedly "loves", to be raped, over and over, and just sit by and watch?"

I think I may have even screamed this at Him a few times in the process too. It took years for me to understand. But now I do. I had to come to the place where I was willing to take responsibility for my life and the things that were happening to me. Until I came to that place, nothing changed. You see, the failure of me not getting the help I needed wasn't on God's part it was on mine. Because I refused to take responsibility, because I refused to see the truth that the way I lived my life was in fact the very thing that was setting me up to get hurt over and over. Was it my fault I got raped then? When I was 5, no. The other times though? I had a responsibility in it, yes. I chose to drink those nights. I chose to do that with men I didn't know. I made all the choices that led to where I ended up. God didn't tell me to do those things. So then how can it be His fault?

If someone drives drunk, gets in an accident, and kills someone else is that anyone's fault besides the person who did it? It was the person who chose to do that who is responsible. Not the person who got killed. Not the parents of the person who got killed. So why then does everything bad people do become God's responsibility? Does that mean then that what those men did to me wasn't wrong though? Absolutely not! Rape is rape. I wasn't a willing participant either way. My fault is in the choice I made to be there in the first place. That's where my responsibility ends.

So then, because I made a bad choice, does that then mean that God Himself "willed" for that to happen to me? That He was happy that happened to me? Absolutely not! Is a parent happy when their child touches the stove and burns their hand? No. Are they maybe even a little frustrated because they told little Jonny five times before he did it, "Don't touch that, it's hot". Yes. Can we put our children on a string and weild them around like little puppets until they are old enough, as we see it, to manage on their own? And if we did that would they have the skills they needed to make it on their own? Can we really keep our children from making any mistakes at all?

No, rather, it would be wiser to realize they are going to make some mistakes and allow them to make some mistakes (nothing that would kill them mind you) so they can learn the difference between right and wrong. How else will they know? Let me ask you this: if you have (or will have) children do you want them to love you simply because you are their parent, and as your child that is their obligation? Or do you want them to love you because they choose to love you? It is the same with God. He will never force Himself upon anyone. He will never force His help upon anyone. He gave us a free will to choose what we do, where we go, what we believe, and so on. Not because He had to, but because He loves us and His will is for us to choose to love Him back. The true essence of the power of "love" is found in the power to choose. God will help those who ask, who are willing to receive His help. It just may not come on the form or fashion they are looking for and so it gets missed.



Yeah, I haven't seen this one yet.



Maybe, maybe not. I can tell you this. I am not a loser in this battle called my life. I have, through God, been able to overcome more things in 35 years than most people experience in an entire lifetime. I am able to look back at those things that almost destroyed me and not even be touched or affected by them in any way. Because that is not who I am anymore. My explination for all of it is God and only God. But really, how could you or anyone else know that? You weren't there. You didn't see the changes happen in my life. But I know because of the experience I've been through. Does that then prove God's existance? It is relative really. To me it does. To others it might. To some it probably won't. And that's all ok. Because no one is obligated to believe any one thing. All I can do is tell what I know from what I've been through, and pray that's enough for some...

Awesome, hephzibah!

I can relate to so much of what you posted here. I've been through some of those trials myself. I know I would never have made it through without God.

I honestly can't recall if I ever blamed God or not. It's early for me, so brain isn't completely kicked in yet this morning. The one thing my mother did get across to me early in life is that God is not responsible for the evil things man does. We just need someone to blame.

I look forward to more of your posts! God Bless you and you go girl!

This thread is moving with awesome speed. Folks have been debating God's existence since before C.I. was even born.
And you know how old that is.

But, folks, if this topic goes for a thousand pages, we will never reach an answer that is not simply a personal interpretation.

That does not mean God does not exist.

But it should mean that our personal interpretation should not depend on a desire for moral license or some eternal reward.

Nor does it mean that god does exist.

Actually, she told me she has gotten really tired of this, especially the self-righteous white boys and girls, and she's gonna move to an alternate reality . . . her exact words were: "Screw you little egomaniacs ! ! !"

Man, I hope you were listening. Being bigoted like that might make Mr. C.I. disown you too. :wink:

I agree Neo. I agree. However, what an opportunity we have here to lay it all on the line and express why we believe what we believe! I see no harm in that. I'm not afraid to lay what I believe on the line, because there is a reason I believe it. I hope I'm not the only one.



Setanta, got a question for you then... Does this mean you believe in a god then? After all you said you talked to her right?

hephzibah,

This is the second time I have now seen Mr. Setanta say he has conversed with God. I, for one, am encouraged. :wink:

well ya'll it's been a fun morning.. but duty calls so I must head to work. Have fun and I'll see ya'll later. Happy posting!

Well, sorta . . . she's allatime followin' me aroun' and buggin' me . . . it ain't like i encourage her or nothin' . . .

What are you trying to say there MA? Does truly being a Christian demand homophobia? Do you mean that all of those Christians that do not have your degree of hostility toward homosexuals are not truly Christians? Yes MA, lobbying to restrict the rights afforded to homosexuals is showing hostility towards them.

Why God Allows Pain

This is one of the best explanations of why God allows pain and suffering that I have seen. It's an explanation other people will understand.

A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed.

As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation.

They talked about so many things and various subjects.

When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said: "I don't believe that God exists."

"Why do you say that?" asked the customer.

"Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn't exist. Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people?

Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't imagine a loving a God who would allow
all of these things."

The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't want to start an argument. The barber finished his job and the
customer left the shop. Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard. He
looked dirty and unkempt.

The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber: "You know what? Barbers do not exist."

"How can you say that?" asked the surprised barber. "I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!"

"No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards,
like that man outside."

"Ah, but barbers DO exist! What happens is that people do not come to me."

"Exactly!"- affirmed the customer. "That's the point! God, too, DOES exist! What happens is that people don't go to Him and do not look
for Him. That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."

Mesquite Wrote:





Right, I mean after all, I kill at least three or four a day, right?

Do you ever quit? Don't suppose there is something in your life you do that I might not like? Probably is, but you know what? It's none of my business. It's not my place to judge you.

My same degree of hostility? Oh man, wait until my friends (the lesbians) see this one. Those girls are gonna crack up over this one.

Note to self: Until someone, anyone shows me in the Constitution of the United States of American that I cannot consider my religious beliefs in making a decision on a vote, then I will maintain my stance. [/color]

Actually MA, I could give a rats ass what you like or dislike so long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others.

I will repeat my question. "Do you mean that all of those Christians that do not have your degree of hostility toward homosexuals are not truly Christians?"

Just to clarify... Disbelief in "homosexuality" does not make one homophobic.

I've got to agree with Mesquite here, Momma. There are many Christian denominations that are fully accepting of homosexuality. One of the things that makes me the craziest about Christianity is the self-righteousness of, not only Christians against non-Christians, but of Christians amongst themselves.

Huh??? To me the expresssion "disbelief in homosexuality" would mean that a person does not believe that homosexuals exist. Are you sure that is what you are trying to say???