0
   

Germans To Put Muslims Through "Loyalty" Test---WTF?

 
 
Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2006 01:50 am
Dlowan0- You weren't speaking of the USA?

You wrote: "Immigration laws are always FEDERAL"

ALWAYS?

Do you know what always means?

You did not say they were always federal in Germany or New Zealand or Fiji,, You said-

IMMIGRATION LAWS ARE ALWAYS FEDERAL!!!

WRONG!!!
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2006 02:22 am
Mortkat wrote:
Dlowan0- You weren't speaking of the USA?

You wrote: "Immigration laws are always FEDERAL"

ALWAYS?

Do you know what always means?

You did not say they were always federal in Germany or New Zealand or Fiji,, You said-

IMMIGRATION LAWS ARE ALWAYS FEDERAL!!!

WRONG!!!


Lol!! Give it up, Deadpuss, and accept your custard pie in the face with some grace.



I wrote, in fact:

dlowan wrote:
Oh, that is interesting.


Here, in areas where the Federal Government is the legislator (our constitution limits federal powers) its laws outweight any that states might bring in...this, immigration rules are ALWAYS federal.




Here, meaning in Australia, where here is for me.

And, as it happens, wher eimmigration laws ARE always federal.


So, as I said, your kindergarten attempt to sneer was an own goal.


Mind you, it's fun watching you wriggle.



Dead cat bounce? Heard of that?
0 Replies
 
Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2006 02:54 am
I am afraid you are correct, dlowan, but cats have nine lives. They are deadly to rabbits. I will watch when you come out of the Brer Patch.
0 Replies
 
Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2006 02:57 am
By the way, Dlowan, as a matter of fact you are mistaken-

You wrote---"eimmigration laws are always federal"

I am very sorry but I can find no reference to any "eimmigration" laws anywhere in either a large dictionary or a law dictionary.

Whatever can you mean??
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2006 03:08 am
bm
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2006 03:39 am
Lash wrote:
This is clearly discrimination. Why don't they give everyone a loyalty test? And, I can imagine the hue and cry if we were to do the same thing.

Before a country accords citizenship to an immigrant, its authorities have to be satisfied that the new citizen would be law-abiding. Here is how Baden-Württemberg phrases it in its information webpage for prospective immigrants. (my translation)

Quote:
For each naturalization, the following conditions must be met:

There must be no actual indications of any present or past efforts that are extremist or directed against the constitution. Impeding a naturalization are efforts that are
  • directed against the free and democratic fundamental order [of Germany, T.]
  • directed against the existence or the security of the federation or a state
  • aiming to unlawfully impede the administration of the constitutional organs of the federation, a state, or one of its [the constitutional organ's, T.] members.
  • endanger the external affairs of the federation through violent acts or the preparation thereof.


Source (in German, click on "Einbürgerung" to get to the text):
http://www.service-bw.de/servlet/PB/-s/ht5o5a84cuuhmhyywbtkeca71hv1g5p/menu/1122395_l1/index.html?hwt=1

The text lists two other conditions that must be met before an immigration. Without translating them in detail, immigrants must speak German well enough to "find ones way in daily life, [...] and have a conversation corresponding to their age and education." Moreover, they have to give up their old citizenship.

Nothing about this is unique to Baden-Württemberg, or even to Germany. When I applied for my American Green Card, I had to fill out a form that contained questions like these: "Between 1933 and 1945, were you involved in the killing of any Jews?" (Just for background, I was born in 1969.) Here is another one: "Are you, or have you ever been, a communist, an anarchist, an islamist, or a member of any other extremist movement?" When I came to Frankfurt to have my interview at the American consulate, an extra question had been stamped into the form: "Once you enter the United States, do you intend to commit any terrorist assaults?" (All these quotes are from memory. My paperwork is filed in my apartment, and I am currently at my parents' house.)

It is obvious on its face that the American approach won't filter out a lot of troublemakers. Officials can't identify them by asking such sweeping, easy-to-lie-about form questions. Hence it makes sense that in Germany, the authorities try to find out the same information through interviews. Questions in oral interviews are less predictable, and they allow the interviewer to tailor his inquiry more narrowly to the individual immigrant. For example, when my Russian piano teacher immigrated in the late 80s, she was asked some questions aiming to find out whether she was a communist. (It wouldn't make sense to ask an Arab that.) Likewise, when the immigrant comes from an Arabian country, the authorities will ask some questions to find out whether he is an Islamist. (This line of questioning wouldn't have made sense for my Jewish piano teacher from Moscow.)

What I think Lash's story is about is that Baden-Württemberg's ministry of the interior updated its catalogue of questions designed to test the constitutional loyalty of immigrating Turks and Arabs. A sloppy reporter then failed to research the background of German immigration law, and cooked up as a scandal what little she had found out about the new bye-law.

It is perhaps no coincidence that Lash's source is the Daily Telegraph, a British paper notorious for its sloppy research and its consistent anti-German slant. It is the same paper that falsely reported early last year that jobless Germans must accept brothels' job openings for prostitutes. So while this new story probably has a lot of hogwash in it, at least it's progress.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2006 04:40 am
Mortkat wrote:
By the way, Dlowan, as a matter of fact you are mistaken-

You wrote---"eimmigration laws are always federal"

I am very sorry but I can find no reference to any "eimmigration" laws anywhere in either a large dictionary or a law dictionary.

Whatever can you mean??


You're a hoot, dead puss!!!!!

By the way...my name isn't "Dlowan0".
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2006 04:44 am
Thomas wrote:
Lash wrote:
This is clearly discrimination. Why don't they give everyone a loyalty test? And, I can imagine the hue and cry if we were to do the same thing.

Before a country accords citizenship to an immigrant, its authorities have to be satisfied that the new citizen would be law-abiding. Here is how Baden-Württemberg phrases it in its information webpage for prospective immigrants. (my translation)

Quote:
For each naturalization, the following conditions must be met:

There must be no actual indications of any present or past efforts that are extremist or directed against the constitution. Impeding a naturalization are efforts that are
  • directed against the free and democratic fundamental order [of Germany, T.]
  • directed against the existence or the security of the federation or a state
  • aiming to unlawfully impede the administration of the constitutional organs of the federation, a state, or one of its [the constitutional organ's, T.] members.
  • endanger the external affairs of the federation through violent acts or the preparation thereof.


Source (in German, click on "Einbürgerung" to get to the text):
http://www.service-bw.de/servlet/PB/-s/ht5o5a84cuuhmhyywbtkeca71hv1g5p/menu/1122395_l1/index.html?hwt=1

The text lists two other conditions that must be met before an immigration. Without translating them in detail, immigrants must speak German well enough to "find ones way in daily life, [...] and have a conversation corresponding to their age and education." Moreover, they have to give up their old citizenship.

Nothing about this is unique to Baden-Württemberg, or even to Germany. When I applied for my American Green Card, I had to fill out a form that contained questions like these: "Between 1933 and 1945, were you involved in the killing of any Jews?" (Just for background, I was born in 1969.) Here is another one: "Are you, or have you ever been, a communist, an anarchist, an islamist, or a member of any other extremist movement?" When I came to Frankfurt to have my interview at the American consulate, an extra question had been stamped into the form: "Once you enter the United States, do you intend to commit any terrorist assaults?" (All these quotes are from memory. My paperwork is filed in my apartment, and I am currently at my parents' house.)

It is obvious on its face that the American approach won't filter out a lot of troublemakers. Officials can't identify them by asking such sweeping, easy-to-lie-about form questions. Hence it makes sense that in Germany, the authorities try to find out the same information through interviews. Questions in oral interviews are less predictable, and they allow the interviewer to tailor his inquiry more narrowly to the individual immigrant. For example, when my Russian piano teacher immigrated in the late 80s, she was asked some questions aiming to find out whether she was a communist. (It wouldn't make sense to ask an Arab that.) Likewise, when the immigrant comes from an Arabian country, the authorities will ask some questions to find out whether he is an Islamist. (This line of questioning wouldn't have made sense for my Jewish piano teacher from Moscow.)

What I think Lash's story is about is that Baden-Württemberg's ministry of the interior updated its catalogue of questions designed to test the constitutional loyalty of immigrating Turks and Arabs. A sloppy reporter then failed to research the background of German immigration law, and cooked up as a scandal what little she had found out about the new bye-law.

It is perhaps no coincidence that Lash's source is the Daily Telegraph, a British paper notorious for its sloppy research and its consistent anti-German slant. It is the same paper that falsely reported early last year that jobless Germans must accept brothels' job openings for prostitutes. So while this new story probably has a lot of hogwash in it, at least it's progress.


That is extremely interesting and informative, as usual, Thomas.


And Walter, too, thank you for answering my previous question so fully.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2006 08:48 am
I spoke to the head of the 'Ausländeramt' ["municipal immigration office!"]in my town this morning. (In the language of the 'Telegraph' report this would be the foreign minister of the state Northrhine-Westphalia - it's just the same position as the named person had in the city of Stuttgart.)

He told me more less the same what Thomas wrote above.
Generally, some states have bye.laws which are a bit strciter than those in other states.
But generally as well: it's all in the hands of local civil servants how they handle these bye-laws ... how they interpret them, without misconstruction.

The newsletter for the 'Ausländeramt(s)' said in its first 2006 issue that the Baden-Würtember approach should be watched carefully to avoid long legal battles. (Sorry, I couldn't copy it: "only for intern use".)
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2006 12:10 pm
I agree with Thomas relative to written tests and loyalty oaths.

I have always found the latter amusing. Just imagine a foreign spy being caught by one:

"Damn! I would have made it in to your country and accomplished my dirty deeds if not for this loyalty oath! I can't lie, and now you've got me!"

I suppose there are some morons who would be tripped up by the sort of written questions Thomas described, but the hit ratio can't be all that high. Clearly, an interview process is the way to go, and, of course, it should be discriminatory in its selection of questions to be asked, for no other reason than an effective interview cannot be canned. The interviewer must be able to follow up on answers to certain questions with additional, more focused questions.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2006 12:24 pm
Another point would be that this loyality oath would - perhaps - be said to persons, who themselves didn't have to such confirm by oath.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2006 12:48 am
Obviously, here media made a lot of noise about nothing:

according to Alice Loyson-Siemering, a spokeswomen of the interior ministry, those questions are only "part of guideslines and no bye-laws".

This manual should help civil servants in the municipal(county offices, if they still have serious doubts that the applicant fully accepts our Basic Law.

A related topic: Germany's Immigration Law Marks One Year
0 Replies
 
Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2006 12:52 am
You are indeed correct, Walter Hinteler. Media do sometimes make a lot of noise about nothing. We, in the USA, are experts at viewing that phenomenon. I believe what you are saying. Please be so good as to take my word for it when I tell you that our media are making a lot of noise "about nothing">
0 Replies
 
 

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