Germans To Put Muslims Through "Loyalty" Test---WTF?

If all immigrants have to take the same test, then I think it's ok. If it's given only to musliims, then it is discriminatory.

Well, can they do this? It looks like they can. Is it right? No way!

I don't think a lot of those questions have a dang thing to do with someone's loyalty to Germany.

I like the they have to prove they can provide for themselves and their families.

Wow, this is a scary thing. I wouldn't even agree with this if they were asking if people were Christians. Don't know if that came out right, but I hope you get my meaning.

Sounds like the first step on the way to the thought police.

I do get your meaning. That's what makes it scary.

I agree with FD. I can't argue much about a universal test given by a sovereign country, but a special additional one just for Muslims is dangerous, to me.

The book "1984" also presented rules for all citizens (except upper party members) given by a sovereign country, but that hardly made the situation acceptable.

Whether or not they can do it will not be decided upon by the laws and cultural mores of America.

Actually, it makes perfect sense to me.

No country is required to accept the applications of each and every person who applies for citizenship. Citizenship is a privilege, not a right.

This is a first step (and it's probably too late) in Europe preserving European culture.

Will anyone argue that the preservation of European culture is an unworthy goal?

Furthermore I see no problem in giving this additional test to only Muslims, for it is Muslims immigrants who represent the greatest threat to a sustained European culture.

No one cries foul when a nation attempts to restrict the introduction of alien species to its native ecology. Why should we cry foul when a nation attempts to restrict the introduction of alien norms to its native culture?

Greater care and concern are directed to insects and plant seeds than to the introduction of members of the Proboscidea order. Why? Because it is common sense that the native ecology is under greater threat from insects and plants, than from elephants.

In England, the number of people attending Anglican services has dropped to such an extent that The Church of England has taken to selling some of its churches. Guess who are buying these places of worship and expanding them to accommodate their growing numbers? Muslims.

In the Netherlands where it is already permissable to euthanize terminal children, the talk is of a legalized suicide pill, not to be restricted to use by terminal patients, but by anyone who has just grown tired of life.

I've no moral or legal problem with a a suicide pill, but if I were European, I think that the day such a pill becomes legal, I would kiss Europe goodbye.

Already the birthrate in most western European countries cannot sustain their current population levels. In other words, Europeans are dying in greater numbers than they are being born. Except, of course, in the particular segment of muslim Europeans.

This is not a trend that will transform Europe tomorrow, but barring major alterations in both their laws and public sentiment, the transformation is inevitable.

To some extent it is Europe being hoisted on its own petard. Europe (and for that matter America) has welcomed a massive influx of cheap labor. Simultaneously its liberal environment has made it not only easy but preferred that these newcomers preserve their own ethnic and religious cultures. If European liberals have even considered the possibility of cultural infection, they have remained confident and content that in relatively short order the newcomers will see the light and adopt European attitudes about women's rights, freedom of religion, same sex relationships, and general tolerance. They are in for a rude awakening.

The rate of change accelerates exponentially, and we are now at a stage where if plotted on a graph, it would follow a vertical of almost 90 degrees from a point only 50 year in the past. The force of immigrants changing European culture overpowers the force of European culture changing immigrants.

Europeans will be wise to do something now to prevent the loss of their culture, because now they can do so in a peaceful and fairly democratic manner. 5 to 10 years from now the same will not be possible.

Many Europeans, I'm sure, believe that European culture can benefit from the introduction of foreign influences, and that there is every reason to believe immigrants will be Europeanized.

Whistling in the dark.

If the Native Americans had the opportunity to control the immigration of Europeans to the New World, would they have been considered racists for doing so? Perhaps, but if they did, there is a strong possibility that they would not be living on reservations and that their culture would have remained essentially intact and dominant in America.

Even so. Why would any country want to grant citizenship to applicants who aren't going to be loyal to their new country.

It seems odd that the requirement is only being pushed by one state, rather than the nation.

Not if that one state gets it, and the rest of the nation is laboring under false illusions.

yup.

a soverign nation has the right to allow or deny entry to any and all immigrants.

to me, the scenario becomes much clearer when i think about it in terms of who i will, or will not, allow into my home.

btw, how's the new pond, ducks ?

But, Finn, what would happen if a US Congressman suggested a similar law? He or she would be torn apart by the acolytes of the ACLU.

I wonder if Walter Hinteler knows about this and whether he would defend it. He seems like a tolerant sort and one who believes in Justice. I do believe that he would have the integrity to bring his own country to task since he believes in morality. He does!!

The questions:


"If your son told you he was homosexual and wanted to live with another man, how would you react?

Would you let your child take part in swimming lessons?

Is it right for weomen to obey their husbands, and for men to beat their wives if they are disobedient?

If your adult daughter dressed like a German woman, would you try to prevet her from doing so?

What are your views on bigamy?"

Until homophobia, sexism, domestic violence, people wanting their kids to stick to country of origin values, (the swimming I don't get...we have been busy teaching newly arrived Muslim women and kids....some of them from the strictest fundamentalist version of the faith...to swim here...but whatever) and bigamy can be demonstrated to occur only in Muslims, the questions, if given only to Muslim would be citizens, are insupportable, in my view.



I take it individual states have rights over these things in Germany? (Here, it is a federal matter).

Will the federal government have a desire/right to intervene, Thomas, Walter....?

The ACLU's response to such a law is easily imagined, but I don't think the US requires one. By and large,the people who are immigrating to the US do not represent a cultural invasion. There are politically correct fools who are creating a problem where one need not exist by requiring Spanish be adopted as an official second language, but I don't think this looms very large when compared to what Europe is facing.

And the reason is, Finn, that we have a remarkable ability to absorb newcomers as we have always had. That ability is mainly, in my opinion, enhanced by our meritocratic system which allows the son of a Mexican Immigrant to become a Federal Judge or the daughter of a recently arrived VietNamese to succeed as a highly respected cardiologist.
The Europeans, much more attuned to the alleged benefits of Socialism have no such fluid system. That is why the adolescent masses in France who are of Arabic origin have reacted so badly.
I am surprised that Germany, which would seem to have been in the forefront of a liberal wave( eg. positions on Capital Punishment; supposed cradle to grave Medical care by government fiat;) has reacted so viciously. Perhaps they see that their country may change from the land of the Volk to the land of the Tribe unless they do something quickly.

Hiya, DTOM. The water's fine in the new pond.

The reason why I say it should not be applied to just Muslims is that I can imagine fundamentalists of any religion giving unsatisfactory answers to such questions. If what they are trying to prevent is the acceptance of people whose values do not coincide with those of Germany, then they should give that test to all prospective citizens. If they are only concerned with fundamentalist Islam, well, that's something different.

The United States is a land of immigrants, Germany is not,
and in order to obtain a German citizenship, an applicant has
to be either born in Germany, have German parents, by adoption through German parents, or by naturalization.
The requirements for naturalization are: 8 years of residency,
loyalty to the free democratic German constitution, adequate
command of the German language and no criminal record (among
other things)

Here is a complete information from the German embassy
http://www.german-embassy.org.uk/reform_of_germany_s_citizenshi.html

Germany has had its fair share of problems with Muslims
throughout the years due to cultural differences, and especially wifes and daughters of Muslim men have become
victims of violence due to them adopting to the free democratic lifestyle, Muslim men won't accept.

If one wants to obtain the citizenship of another country, it is understood that the applicant will honor and oblige by the rules of the new country.
This wasn't any different when I applied for the US citizenship.

From the quoted Telegraph report:



No German state has a foreign ministry - foreign affairs is done on federal basis. Obviously, here the interior ministry is meant.

As far as I've learnt until now, the Baden-Würtemberg interior ministry bases this decision on the 'fact' that 21% of Muslims in Germany don't think our basic law would go conform with the Koran.

If their are doubts according the attitude of other potential new citizens towards the Basic Law, those persons would be questioned similar, according to the Baden-Würtember interior minister.
The quetionair, however, will indeed only used when the persons are from one of the 57 countries of the Isalmic Confedaration or of Muslim belief.


Personally, I don't only think this to be another stupid idea by the conservatives but really half-baked, e.g. they must make a different regulation for all Muslims from the EU-countries.
I doubt, this law will stand at Federal Constitutional Court.

Baden-Würtenberg, in 2005, only 6.547 foreign citizens got the German citizenship.

The law is a Federal Law, however, the handling is done by state authorities.

(Thus, we already have a variety of 'loyalty tests'.
Before the new law was introduced a couple of years ago [and later had to be changed because it was sacked by the Federal Constituional Curt], foreign citizens, who wanted to get the German citizenship, only and simply had to sigb that they wanted to act according to the Basic Law.)

I suggest you get used to it as you are only going to see more of the same throughout Europe.

Discrimination isn't, intrinsically, a bad process. It helps to be able to discriminate between edible mushrooms and the poisonous kind.

Admittedly, the value in the idea of screening immigrants for cultural compatibility with the values of the home state is as applicable to individual non-Muslims as it is to individual Muslims, but if there is a question of limited resources, it is rational that discrimination be employed to direct them most effectively. While it is possible that Hungarian, Chinese and Bolivian immigrants will not only hold firm to cultural values that are inconsistent with those of Germany, but work toward imposing them upon their new home, it is highly unlikely based on recent and long term experience.

It sounds, though, like limited resources is not an issue, and if that's so there really isn't a good case to make for requiring the test only of Muslim immigrants.

Better, actually, to employ this test to all immigrants seeking residency, and not just those who seek citizenship.

It is, however, definitaly against our basic law - and a part within it, which won't be changed (otherwise we had to get a completely new constitution).

Therefor, the Baden-Würtemberg interior ministry insists that it is no discriminition at all.