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The US, UN & Iraq III

 
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 02:26 pm
Gelisgesti, thanks for the New Republic Online article. Quite a piece.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 03:45 pm
George

I agree Europe's failure to intervene militarily in Bosnia was a disgrace, apart from the fact that Europe had no military!

But that does not mean I support (ed) an invasion of Iraq, that was quite a different order of things.

No suggestions for my competition? Anyone?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 03:49 pm
Persia's next . . . I mean Iran . . . (damn, chenneling ol' Winston again) . . . and then them damn Syrians . . . we'd go after North Korea, too, but it looks like those boys could put up a fight . . . don't know about that one . . . you know, i look around me, and i see such a lack of democracy in the world . . . just makes me wanna invade another resource rich . . . i mean dictator-oppressed small nation, and free those benighted souls as well . . .
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Steve 41oo
 
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Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 04:01 pm
Me too Set

I feel so sorry for all those unliberated natural resources who naturally want to be liberated by me and my conglomerate.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 04:16 pm
a
Thanks Kara, I thought it good enough to share. .... a good take of the events in Texas ..... will the Dems let it slide?
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 05:57 pm
a
Kara, Salam Pax has a new entry dated today ..... pretty interesting as usual



http://dear_raed.blogspot.com/
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 06:41 pm
Bush
Bush's War on the Poor
Economic Justice

By DAVID KRIEGER

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

These revolutionary words from the Declaration of Independence are worth reflecting upon in light of the current struggle for economic justice in America. The government of the United States, the richest and most powerful country in the world, is perpetuating economic injustice within the United States and throughout the world. While the government seems to have unlimited funds for missiles and munitions, it is failing to provide health care, housing or education for large segments of the US population.


The rest of the story
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 06:45 pm
Looks like Iran may get off the hook if it releases some alleged Al Qaeda people into US custody -- or that's what it looks like, listening between the lines on this Sunday evening...
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 06:50 pm
Gelis, Rather long, but good link. Thanks for sharing. c.i.
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 06:53 pm
Ge, that was a link.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 07:00 pm
I never thought of it that way, tax cuts to fund re-election to further tax cuts to fund re-election ...... and so on and so forth.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 07:04 pm
I'm so confused .... the link to salam pas or the krieger link???
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 07:15 pm
Ge, the one about our poor. I have not pulled up the salam pax link yet.
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 07:51 pm
Doug posted this link from a news article:

Quote:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."


We all know these words. What I have found out by reading Karen Armstrong's "Islam" is that the beliefs of the Koran are essentially similar to our beliefs about human society. The Koran as revealed by Mohammed is based on an egalitarian system of rule. All people are equal. The difference from our own Declaration is that the Koran expression of equality is received from God, not man. The Koran expresses the thought that egalitararianism is God's law and that democracy, or agreement among the governed, is how a society ought to be ruled. Religious belief must never be forced on others in a diverse society; violence is forbidden by the Koran; women are equal to men in the society envisioned by the Koran.

The last chapters of her book deal with how Islam has changed and how it sees itself and is seen in the modern world, as it is threatened by modern secular society. She compares Muslim fundamentalism to the fundamentalism of other religions, Jewish and Christian. She describes and discusses all of the modern societies that are Islamic in part or in whole, and she talks at length about Iran. She addresses the Palestinian-Israel issue, too. The end part of the book deals with how an modern society can be Islamic in belief or in bent and yet be democratic and satisfy the seculars in that society.

There was an interesting bit toward the end about our scorn of the hijab and the cloaking of women in Islamic societies. There is an issue here of Western flaunting of body and buff that is inimical to the thoughtful mental and physical cloistering that is typical of Eastern societies. Why reveal all?, they seem to say, men or women, both of whom seem to dress in unrevealing shrouds, as if to show that their inner life means more than what they display.

Something to think about.
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mysteryman
 
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Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 10:57 pm
I have been reading the comments in here about the war in Iraq,the looting of the museums,and why the oil and information mnistries were protected.

I just returned from Iraq,via a 3 week stay in the hospital at Ramstein AFB,so I think I can offer an insight that seems to be lacking here.

After every war,while it is the responsibility of the victors to protect and defend the population,it is also the responsibility of the local govt to insure that the police,fire authorities,and other vital functions are maintained.Even Germany,after WW2,had their local police forces available to keep order.
Now,since the only way that US troops could have EFFECTIVLY protected those museums was by force,it was probably decided by the brass that we would not do that. How would that have looked if reporters had filmed troops using deadly force that way?
Also,while I was wounded in Nasireyah and evac'ed to Germany,I do know that the locals we met during the marines drive on the town did welcome us.
So,while I will support anyones decision to protest this war,and to say it was wrong,please dont say that US troops either allowed the looting or participated in it in any form.That simply is not true.
Remember,the troops in Baghdad at that time were combat troops,not policemen.They are not trained nor qualified to provide police functions,that is the job of the MP's,and they were handling the POW's taken.
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Eva
 
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Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 11:40 pm
mysteryman --

So glad to hear that you're back and healing! Your words carry considerable weight here. While we've all been toodling on our computers, debating whether or not you should have been sent there, you were out there doing a very difficult job. Please don't misunderstand the protests here as being unsupportive...some of us simply wish, deeply and passionately, that you hadn't had to go.

And we're glad you're home. Take care of that hand, okay? We need you back, typing at that keyboard, telling us what it was like over there.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 11:41 pm
Thanks for your input, mystryman.

And even more thanks, for the job you did for all of us!

Certainly everyone knows that combat troops and no policemen have been there.

And that's one of my points: polticians didn't plan this correctly, didn't think of what could happen.


Hoping, you are doing fine and recovering soon!
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2003 04:42 am
a
In Iraq, U.S. repeats its Afghan mistakes
Stability: War-torn nations need firm U.S. direction to switch from totalitarianism to a semblance of the American way. By Larry Goodson
Special To The Sun
Originally published May 25, 2003

As Americans struggle to understand the complexities of the post-conflict reconstruction of Iraq, they should consider America's post-Taliban experience in Afghanistan, for Afghanistan has provided the template for the U.S. approach to Iraq.

The same policy-makers who shaped America's response in Afghanistan to al-Qaida's 9/11 attacks are shaping America's policy toward Iraq, where they are repeating every important theme of America's Afghan project. That should be a cause for worry, because things are not going well in Afghanistan.





The rest of the story
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2003 04:52 am
a
Read a little learn a lot ...
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2003 06:07 am
Welcome back, mysteryman. I second the comments of Visitor and Walter.

It is good to have your input from "the ground." I don't think any of us accused the US military of being part of the looting. Many of us were astonished that the US, after months or years of planning for a post-war Iraq, had neglected to plan for protection of the country's famous collections of antiquities. Re the responsibility of the Iraqis in place to continue with police duties, I have read that many of the top level security people were Baathists loyal to Sadaam Hussein and went into hiding or left the country after our conquest.
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