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The US, UN & Iraq III

 
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 May, 2003 06:59 am

TWO LINKS
http:// www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/ED24Ak03.html

Salon.com reports on the fight between Pentagon neo-conservatives, State Department realists, and the UN http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/04/14/reconstruction/

------------------------------

LIFE IN IRAQ
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/04/1051987604147.html

depleted-uranium bullets now scattered throughout Baghdad.
http://www. commondreams.org/headlines03/0515-01.htm

cholera in Basra
http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID= 2741433

------------------------------

OCCUPATION
international humanitarian law related to belligerent occupation.
http:// www.hrw.org/campaigns/iraq/ihlfaqoccupation.htm

daily tension between U.S. "liberators" and occupied Iraqis.
http:// www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/ED22Ak02.html

Department of Defense is set to close its only institution devoted to training peacekeepers
http://www.observer.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,944259,00.html

------------------------------

INTERIM GOVERNMENT AND NATION-BUILDING

http:/ /www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=14966

Last week, Bremer postponed the formation of an Iraqi-led interim government indefinitely.
http://www.moveon.org/r?441

the possibilities for governing postwar Iraq, including the neo-conservative model, the Afghan model, and the Iraqi exile model
http://www.fpif.org /papers/iraqgov2003.html

Iraqi women are not being involved in the government
http://news. bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3007381.stm

------------------------------

SANCTIONS AND OIL

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID= 3594


investigative report [on] the past history of oil development, issues of state versus private control, Iraqi competence and autonomy, the potential role of multinationals, and some surprising conclusions about the possible impact full development could have on the world.
http://www.moveon.org/r?440

------------------------------

COMPANY CONTRACTS

http://money.cnn.com/2003/05/11/news/companies/halliburton_iraq/

http:// www.corpwatch.org/issues/PID.jsp?articleid=6532


All of the above from an emailed MoveOn newsletter -- FYI.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 May, 2003 08:34 am
c.i., If there is no information forthcoming, the Bush regime will invent some - so, we'll never know anyway! Necessity is the mother of invention - truth and source be damned ...........
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 May, 2003 09:15 am
Bill w
how bout these

http://www.adnan.org/2003_04_01_archives.php#200174948

oil to israel


http://www.420.com/htsite/blog/content.php



cheney blog
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 May, 2003 09:59 am
Tartar and BillW, I've always considered our involvement in Iraq as a "quagmire" from it's very inception. The question has always been and still is, "who asked us to liberate the Iraqi people?" c.i.
0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 May, 2003 01:58 pm
Mr Stillwater in regard to your post of Thu May 22, 2003 6:54 pm

Not glib at all, quite valid questions.

If we could some how use some of Saddam's Personal fortune to pay for some of the war damage that would be great. Problem is Saddam didn't really earn it and therefore we would just be taking more resources belonging to the Iraqi people. It's a shame we can't find him. I think his prosecution for his deeds against the Iraqi people would, at least in a small way, help unify Iraq. But, I digress.

As to your question:

Quote:
"Where is this 'middle-class' will come from?"


Its already there, at least its cultural memory still exists.

This from Kim Ghattas' April 24th 2002 article in BBC's world news

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1949205.stm

Quote:
"...For the past 12 years, the country has been struggling under UN-imposed sanctions, which have greatly affected the life of the Iraqis but done little to undermine the power of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.

Saddam Hussein has kept a tight grip on power since UN imposed sanctions

Iraq's middle class has been almost completely wiped out while poverty is spreading and people with close ties to the regime are becoming richer..."


Indeed, this area located in the "Fertile Crescent", is at least one of the original sites of the development of a middle class in the ancient history of human civilization, if not the original (In earlier times such as 3000B.C. I liberally equate the mercantile class with today's Middle Class. They are really the same regarding my discussion of Middle Class importance related to national economic health).

A strong healthy middle class is important for two reasons. First it demonstrates a healthy industrious citizenry. A nation's true wealth comes from its people and their labors, inventions, and societal institutions. It does not come from the presence of natural resources. Without proper management and efficient use of these resources by the nation these resources alone will not produce a strong vital economy.

Second, we see that a strong middle class encourages personal liberty and a diverse source of human resource because of its very nature.

Quote:
"The success of the middle-classes... can be seen in their ability to universalise a set of principles based on individuality and progress. In moving from a society based on rank and privilege to one based on free exchange, the very idea that an individual, through hard work, thrift and self reliance, could achieve social and economic success provided an equalising principle."


The Rise of the Victorian Middle Class
By Dr Donna Loftus

Full text at:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/society_culture/society/middle_classes_01.shtml

The kernel of middle class values exists in Iraq within all ethnic and religious groups. The middle class speaks a common language by calling for fairness, efficiency, and the diversity inherent in a system that rewards anyone who produces a better "mouse trap". This language should be another force bringing disparate groups together.

I also share your concern regarding the main factions within the country.

However, unlike you, I see the Kurds not as obstructionist but as a model for the rest of the country. As you have made reference to in your above post, they have, in the last twelve years, set up a defacto Kurdish republic (Which in itself has various factions). This was possible due mostly to U.S. protection and enforcement of the Northern "No Fly Zone". Their leaders, shortly before the initiation of GWII, came to an agreement with the U.S. that they would not pursue statehood. Turkey also demonstrated its seriousness against such nationalistic tendencies by sending troops to its frontier shared with Northern Iraq. The Kurds seemed to get the message. So much so, that at one point the Kurds actually withdrew from Mosul after taking it with coalition help. Kurdish main interests seem to lie in a relatively autonomous government. This concept is not incongruous with an Iraqi republican type government and is similar to individual state's concerns early in the formation of the U.S. government.

The Shi'a sect currently comprise at least 60% of the country's population and have, as I have mentioned earlier in this thread, expressed a desire to have a stronger say in government that is more representative of their numerical presence. This is, of course, fair and can also be incorporated into a republican style government. At least implicit in this Shiite request is a desire to have a mostly Shiite influence on the government. However, with a republican government and a counterbalancing rule requiring a quorum for legitimate national action this overbalance can be effectively checked in legislative forums.

The Sunni sect comprises 20-25% of the population. One can divide up Iraq's population a number of ways. However, I am not sure of any validity afforded to any one type of classification.

Using a "People" yardstick the country can be divided between Kurdish and Arab peoples (as well as other much smaller groups). The Arab segment being composed of Sunni and Shi'a religious sects. But if we use the "Religious" measure we see 2 large divisions, Shiite and Sunni, at least 15% of the latter consisting of Kurds. The former composed of "Marsh Arabs", "nomadic Bedouins" and others. Investigating further, we find further divisions.

Are we then to throw up our hands in frustration and voice our dismay as to all the different factions? Is this supposed roadblock to future central government insurmountable? No. Given a republican/representative type of government these numerous factions will actually work towards an overall goal of fair government for all and work against selection for special groups gaining an inordinate amount of governmental control. Cabals voting against such actions will subvert the parochial interests of individual factions. Conversely, if the central government is to adopt any overarching legislation this will require the majority of factions to work together thereby insuring a buffer against self-interests and resulting in a policy more evenly balanced towards the general good. This assumes the government in question is properly constituted and implemented, so I am cautiously optimistic.

An auspicious sign has been the large increase in the appearance and sale of satellite dishes in Iraq. These are able to pick up signals from such diverse sources as Al-Jazeera, BBC, and MSNBC. More balanced information fosters more sensible decisions. No one can long for something when its existence is not known. Stone age tribes in the jungles of Papua New Guinea do not pine for TV. So, when the Iraqi masses see what is actually going on in the world they will want a piece of the action for themselves, this includes liberty in addition to DVD players.


JM
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 May, 2003 05:54 pm
Oh my, Oh my.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 06:32 am
George

I agree the United States was rather late on the scene when it came to imperialism (after all the US itself was rather late on the scene), and in certain respects US brand imperialism has been rather more benign than some European powers. But America has made up for lost time with a vengeance since the end of WW2. The Federation of American Scientists has compiled a list of 200+ operations world wide since the Berlin Airlift where the US military has been deployed.

It seems self evident to me that after WW2 an exhausted Great Britain passed on the torch of empire to the US under the guise of freedom and fighting communism. During WW2 we gave you the cavity wave magnetron which arguably won the war, and the outline design for atomic weapons which again arguably finished it. After the war Britain handed over useful naval and military bases all over the world, enabling Washington to take on and finally gain victory in the cold war. Today America is the worlds first truly global hegemon, and although there is no precedent for this, it is acting exactly as one might expect. Institutions such as the UN are of no interest, they only serve to provide ammunition for America's enemies.

Now the only question is "Are you with America or are you against America?" France, Germany, Russia and China have yet to give a clear answer. But what's interesting is that Bush should have even framed the question in such stark terms.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 06:35 am
From The New Republic
And all we can do is to stand around and mutter 'uh oh, uh oh, uh oh'?





" These stories of Bush administration dishonesty and abuse have not been denied in the conservative press as much as they have been ignored. In researching this column, I could not find a single substantive defense of Bush's UAV claim, or his filibuster plan, or his uranium allegation, in any elite conservative publication. Fred Barnes last week defended the Texas redistricting plan in The Weekly Standard but, incredibly, never acknowledged the key issue: that states traditionally limit themselves to one redistricting per decade. For conservatives, it seems, this administration's decency and honesty are ideological axioms that require no empirical defense. President Bush is not President Clinton. That's all they need to know."





Click me
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 06:41 am
What's bugging me at the moment is the backlash against Britain for supporting the US invasion of Iraq meant that we got 0 points in the Eurovision song contest last night. (!)

Had Blair thought about the possibility of this national humiliation when he backed George Bush? I doubt it.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 07:00 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
What's bugging me at the moment is the backlash against Britain for supporting the US invasion of Iraq meant that we got 0 points in the Eurovision song contest last night. (!)

Had Blair thought about the possibility of this national humiliation when he backed George Bush? I doubt it.


I wish to be the first to tell you Steve, that i deeply commiserate your suffering for this unjust and petty display of pique. I hope that no one was made seriously ill by this humiliation?
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 07:32 am
D'art -- I read the Beinart piece with great interest because it resonated with some other reading I'd been doing just before turning on the computer. At the core is the public's desire to believe Bush (who has lied impeachably) and not Clinton (who didn't). I just don't know where to put the Republicans I know personally who expressed great distaste about this administration but who, in effect, throw up their hands, or shrug, or change the subject. "Denial" is not what's going on there. At the risk of bringing down Republican wrath on my head, I'd have to say that greed and me-firstism rules the Republican voter more overtly than it does the Dem. Republicans defend greed and me-firstism more openly; Dems are often guilty of it, but they also feel guilty about it!. Self-interest is a virtue. It is in the self-interest of many to go with the flow, and since the flow of the mainstream (which can easily be mistaken for "meanstream") is controlled by Republican interests. Can we stem that flow? Worry about June 2nd. Worry a lot.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 07:34 am
Thanks Set.

It was a terrible blow, but time is a great healer, and hey there's always next year!

The winning entry by Turkey was an absolute disgrace.

1. The girls were NOT wearing burkhas (in fact not much at all) in flagrant violation of the Koranic teaching on the Eurovision Song Contest.

2. Turkey is and always will be part of Asia Minor and not Europe.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 07:48 am
Well, actually it was a rather nice song, but nothing for the Eurovision contest. (And the guy looked ..., but she is just ...sweet!http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39079000/jpg/_39079400_jeminilong.jpg
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 08:14 am
COMPETITION:

What's the guy saying in the above photo?

Prizes

1st A cd of the British entry
2nd All the other cds of the British entry
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 08:16 am
"She won't let be do this backstage!"
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 08:17 am
(And I thaught, you bought something special Laughing )
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 08:18 am
Steve, I generally agree. A few comments;

The U.S. signed a deal with the UK in 1940 for base rights in Bermuda, Newfoundland, Trinidad, Honduras, and Ascension island in exchange for 50 destroyers which were transferred before the U.S. got into the war. However, I'm not aware of any military or naval bases anywhere we received from the UK after the war. We did emerge from the war with bases in north Africa, Iceland, and Asia, however these were a result of direct military action by the U.S. during the war - as were many similar British bases.

British technology, particularly in electronics, certainly spurred the enormous developments that occurred on both sides of the Atlantic during the war. The preliminary concepts for the fission bomb arose both in Britain and among a number of German and Hungarian emigrees in the U.S. (Szliard, von Neumann, and others). The big challenges were the isotopic separation of uranium, the production of plutonium and the design of suitable fuses, and these were met in the U.S. after 1941. A German emigree working for Britain in the combined program, Klaus Fuchs, was the chief source of design information for the Russians.

There have been, as you say, lots of U.S. military deployments since WWII. They have ranged from Korea and Vietnam to Grenada. Most were a part of the Cold War which I believe history will record as a struggle comparable to that of WWII. We won: the only alternative was to lose. I suppose one could make a case that, since the fall of the Soviet empire, our military excursions have been only to preserve our own hegemony. However, what is the alternative?

As the membership of the UN has grown the average political and economic maturity of its membership has declined - an inescapable consequence. The likes of Lybia, Cuba, Zimbabwe, and Nigeria each have as many votes in the General Assembly as do we. In aggregate, they increasingly dominate the actions of the whole organization. Each criticizes us for doing in a very small way in the international arena, what they do completely and utterly to their own citizens domestically.

Finally, not all military deployments are for selfish purposes, and not all failures to intervene are praiseworthy. Would you defend the indifference of the continental European powers to the Balkan slaughter that was occurring in their midst?
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 08:45 am
Ohmigod, Walter, I've been looking for one single reason I'm glad to be back in American vs. Europe and now you've given it to me! The Eurovision Context! Whew!
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 09:35 am
That has always been the main/single reason for my wish to immigrate, Tartarin!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2003 01:17 pm
In today's news: "By MARC LACEY
Iraqi soldiers complained bitterly of the allies' plans to disband the country's armed forces, and some threatened to take up arms unless their salaries were continued." So much for peace and democracy in Iraq. c.i.
0 Replies
 
 

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