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The US, UN & Iraq III

 
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2003 08:56 pm
In your response regarding Wahhabism yesterday you as an "expert" gave the broad brush treatment to the impact of Wahhabism on the rest of Islam. Tell me sir, is that because you don't want people to know how deadly Wahhabism is to the world and in particular to Islam

Why don't you express your outrage about the suicide bombing in Baghdad to day? You probably supported and cheered when you heard about it. Save your meaningless sense of outrage for the next victims of one of the righteous true believers of Islam.


Perc, I'm not Muslim, I'm not Catholic, I'm agnostic. Perhaps the reason my interperetation of Whabbism offended you is because I haven't any religious axe to grind. Islam is a multifaceted faith. there are roughly forty variations of Sunni Islam (of which Wahabbism is branch) alone. Wahabbism is growing due to two factors: The vigourous injection of funds it has recieved from the Saudi royal family (mostly as a "bribe" to keep them from spreading dissent at home) and its tendency to proselytize among the poor and downtrodden in Europe's Muslim immigrant community. It is amusing how similar the growth of fundamentalist Islam mirrors the rise of fundamental Christianity (just as goofy) in traditionally Catholic Central and South America, and Bhuddist Korea. My personal opinion is that fundamentalism of any flavour is dangerous. You are not going to get the sort of ideologically driven hatred you wish for from me. I really don't want to even admit you exist at the moment. Just go away, allright? Why don't you go beat up a homeless person, or torture a kitten? That is probably the sort of thing that would make you feel better. Rolling Eyes
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2003 09:01 pm
Hobitbob

Now why don't I believe you?
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2003 09:23 pm
You go, I go, Hobit.
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wolf
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2003 09:24 pm
I believe that's our second Plato quote for tonight. :wink:

I feel your pain, bob. But it's clear p. is here to exactly stir these kinds of emotions. Sabotage of the internet is the larger goal.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2003 10:15 pm
I think you just gave perc an organism ...
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 07:03 am
Oh THAT's what I've been having, Gelis... I thought it was something else...!
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 07:15 am
Shall we continue with something a bit more pleasant.

TERRORIST DESPAIR

By RALPH PETERS

Email Archives
Print Reprint

August 20, 2003 -- THE first strategy employed by Iraqi dead- enders and their terror- tourist allies failed miserably: They attacked U.S. forces head-on - and paid a bitter price.

With their comrades killed, wounded or captured, their leaders apprehended (another one yesterday), their bases of support whittled away and U.S. resolve only hardened, our enemies have turned to a new, desperate strategy.

Over the past several days, the Iraqi hardliners and their terrorist allies attacked an oil pipeline and a water main. Yesterday, a terrorist drove a truck bomb into the U.N. headquarters in Baghdad, killing dozens and wounding more than 100 people.

Our enemies' initial "Mogadishu Strategy" - based on the faulty notion that if you kill Americans they pack up and go home - was a disaster for them. Our response devastated their already-crippled organization. Now, with reduced capabilities and decayed leadership, they've turned to attacking soft targets. It's the best they can do.

It's ugly. But it's an indicator of their weakness, not of strength.

Demoralized by constant defeats, our enemies have become alarmed by the quickening pace of reconstruction. Consequently, we will see more attacks on infrastructure, on international aid workers and on Iraqis laboring to rebuild their country.

We'll also see al Qaeda and other terrorist groups become the senior partners among our enemies, as Ba'athist numbers and capabilities dwindle. There is more innocent blood to come.

Yet the bombing of the U.N. headquarters at the Canal Hotel was a self-defeating act. Even if it frightens the U.N. off (and it just might accomplish the opposite) the attack reminds the world yet again of the savagery of radical Islamic terrorists and the brutality of those whom we deposed in Baghdad.

Like 9/11, the Canal Hotel attack, though impressive at the moment, will prove another disaster for the terrorists.

Our enemies are frantically trying to prove to the people of Iraq and the world that they remain powerful and viable. But they aren't powerful or viable: They're reduced to a faltering program of assassinations, blowing up aid workers and infrastructure attacks that will alienate the people of Iraq. Any support they gain through such actions will be negligible, while the anger they have rekindled can only harm their cause.

Our enemies hope to make Iraq ungovernable. Yet, contrary to the images on TV, the country is making swifter progress than we had any right to expect:

* It was our Kurdish allies who captured Iraq's former vice president, Taha Yassin Ramadan, and turned him over to us yesterday.

* For all his rhetoric about raising an army of believers, Moqtada Sadr, a hate-filled Shi'a mullah greedy for power, is afraid to attempt anything of consequence. Senior Shi'a clerics despise him, while the people of the Shi'a heartland distrust him.

* Even the Sunni-Arab center of Iraq has become less restive than it was a month ago.

The signs for the dead-enders are all bad. They had to do something dramatic.

And if the remaining Ba'athists are despondent, the traveling terrorists of al Qaeda are outraged that the Iraqi people have failed to rise up against the infidels. It's likely that a non-Iraqi drove that truck into the Canal Hotel.

Why attack the United Nations? Other than the ease with which it could be struck? Several reasons.

First, the U.N. dealt a blow to the hardliners when the Security Council recently recognized the legitimacy of Iraq's Governing Council. Second, the Ba'athists will never forgive the U.N. for its support, no matter how lukewarm, for sanctions and weapons inspections in the past - or for failing to restrain coalition forces last March.

And for al Qaeda and associated terrorists, the United Nations is a Western-dominated tool of Christians and Zionists - despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. We are not facing reasonable men. They have a deep and furious need to hate.

The attack on the U.N. headquarters also was an effort to undercut reconstruction efforts. Our enemies hope that, by attacking aid workers, they can prevent other international agencies from coming to Iraq, that they can drive a wedge between the coalition and the Johnny-come-latelies nudging their way into reconstruction programs.

This will be a moment of truth for the United Nations. America and its partners have demonstrated that we will not be deterred by bloodstained bullies. Will the U.N. honor its dead by showing some backbone? Or will it flee Baghdad, handing the terrorists a real, if minor, victory? If the United Nations discredits itself by running away, it will hasten its long decline. If it takes a stand against terror and goes right back to work in Iraq, it may regain a good bit of its faded luster.

The truck bomb didn't simply attack the U.N. - it struck at the U.N.'s idea of itself. The lesson the U.N. must take away is that no one can be neutral in the struggle with evil.

Within our own country, every potential Howard Dean voter will declare that the U.N. headquarters bombing proves, for all time, that our occupation has failed, can never succeed, should never have been tried, and, anyway, that we're all bad people for disturbing poor, innocent dictators. Then they'll trot out the nonsense that, since Iraq has become a magnet for international terrorists, we've failed on that count, too.

On the contrary. We've taken the War Against Terror to our enemies. It's far better to draw the terrorists out of their holes in the Middle East, where we don't have to read them their rights, than to wait for them to show up in Manhattan again.

In Iraq, we can just kill the bastards. And we're doing it with gusto.

Yes, the Canal Hotel attack proves that terrorists are rushing to Iraq like moths to a hurricane lamp. But when that happens, the lamp wins, not the moths.

Retired Army intelligence officer Ralph Peters' next book is "Beyond Baghdad: Postmodern War and Peace."
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 08:01 am
perception wrote:


On the contrary. We've taken the War Against Terror to our enemies. It's far better to draw the terrorists out of their holes in the Middle East, where we don't have to read them their rights, than to wait for them to show up in Manhattan again.

In Iraq, we can just kill the bastards. And we're doing it with gusto.

Yes, the Canal Hotel attack proves that terrorists are rushing to Iraq like moths to a hurricane lamp. But when that happens, the lamp wins, not the moths.

Retired Army intelligence officer Ralph Peters' next book is "Beyond Baghdad: Postmodern War and Peace."

So lets see if I have this right. The nearly daily killings of US troops is a victory because it shows that the terrorists are still there?

Quote:
In Iraq, we can just kill the bastards. And we're doing it with gusto.


But many of the "bastards" are innnocent civilians.
Its a nice, "woof-hoorah" article, meant to make those who love explosions feel good, but it does little else.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 08:06 am
Fighting with the computer. Ignore.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 08:08 am
For those interested in the hearings in the UK, the Guardian is the most thorough source I've bumped into....reportage and commentary
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/kelly/story/0,13747,1021534,00.html
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 08:08 am
The same information is used to draw a different conclusion:

How America has Created a Terrorist State

OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
How America Created a Terrorist Haven
By JESSICA STERN

esterday's bombing of the United Nations headquarters in Baghdad was the latest evidence that America has taken a country that was not a terrorist threat and turned it into one.

Of course, we should be glad that the Iraq war was swifter than even its proponents had expected, and that a vicious tyrant was removed from power. But the aftermath has been another story. America has created ?- not through malevolence but through negligence ?- precisely the situation the Bush administration has described as a breeding ground for terrorists: a state unable to control its borders or provide for its citizens' rudimentary needs.

As the administration made clear in its national security strategy released last September, weak states are as threatening to American security as strong ones. Yet its inability to get basic services and legitimate governments up and running in post-war Afghanistan and Iraq ?- and its pursuant reluctance to see a connection between those failures and escalating anti-American violence ?- leave one wondering if it read its own report.

For example, the American commander in Iraq, Gen. John Abizaid, has described the almost daily attacks on his troops as guerrilla campaigns carried out by Baathist remnants with little public support. Yet an increasing number of Iraqis disagree: they believe that the attacks are being carried out by organized forces ?- motivated by nationalism, Islam and revenge ?- that feed off public unhappiness.

According to a survey this month by the Iraq Center for Research and Strategic Studies, nearly half of the Iraqis polled attribute the violence to provocation by American forces or resistance to the occupation (even more worrisome, the Arabic word for "resistance" used in the poll implies a certain amount of sympathy for the perpetrators). In the towns of Ramadi and Falluja, where many of the recent attacks have taken place, nearly 90 percent of respondents attributed the attacks to these causes.

Why would ordinary Iraqis not rush to condemn violence against the soldiers who liberated them from Saddam Hussein? Mustapha Alani, an Iraqi scholar with the Royal United Services Institute in London, gave me a possible explanation: even in the darkest days of the Iran-Iraq war, most Iraqis (other than Kurds and Marsh Arabs) did not have to worry about personal security. They could not speak their minds, but they could count on electricity, water and telephone service for at least part of the day. Today they fear being attacked in their bedrooms; power, water and telephones are routinely unavailable. As Mr. Alani put it, Iraqis today could could care less about democracy, they just want assurance that their daughters won't be raped or their sons kidnapped en route to the grocery store.

Blaming the violence on isolated Baath loyalists was perhaps more plausible when the violence was centered in the Sunni heartland. But the recent riots in the southern Shiite city of Basra, and the sabotage of a major oil pipeline in the Kurdish north, make clear that other regions may not be peaceable indefinitely.

Shiites widely supported the operation to remove Saddam Hussein, but they are furious about what they see as American incompetence since the war. This set the stage for religious extremists. Moktada al-Sadr, a vitriolic cleric in Basra, says he has recruited a 5,000-man Shiite army to take on the occupiers. In public he is urging his followers to engage in "peaceful" resistance, but some have told Western reporters that they are prepared to carry out "martyrdom operations" if and when they receive orders to do so.

In addition, in the run-up to the war, most Iraqis viewed the foreign volunteers who were rushing in to fight against America as troublemakers, and Saddam Hussein's forces reportedly killed many of them. Today, according to Mr. Alani, these foreigners are increasingly welcomed by the public, especially in the former Baathist strongholds north of Baghdad.

As bad as the situation inside Iraq may be, the effect that the war has had on terrorist recruitment around the globe may be even more worrisome. Even before the coalition troops invaded, a senior United States counterterrorism official told reporters that "an American invasion of Iraq is already being used as a recruitment tool by Al Qaeda and other groups." Intelligence officials in the United States, Europe and Africa say that the recruits they are seeing now are younger than in the past. Television images of American soldiers and tanks in Baghdad are deeply humiliating to Muslims, even those who didn't like Saddam Hussein, explained Saad al-Faqih, head of Movement for Islamic Reform in Arabia, a Saudi dissident group in London. He told me that some 3,000 young Saudis have entered Iraq in recent months, and called the war "a gift to Osama bin Laden."

Hassan Nasrallah, head of the Lebanese Shiite group Hezbollah, told a crowd of 150,000 in a March religious observance that the United States was trying to create a "tragedy for humanity and to spread chaos in the world" and predicted that the people of Iraq and the region would "welcome American troops with rifles, blood, arms, martyrdom."

The occupation has given disparate groups from various countries a common battlefield on which to fight a common enemy. Hamid Mir, a biographer of Osama bin Laden, has been traveling in Iraq and told me that Hezbollah has greatly stepped up its activities not only in Shiite regions but also in Baghdad.

Most ominously, Al Qaeda's influence may be growing. It has been linked to attacks as far apart as Indonesia, Saudi Arabia and Morocco. One suspect in yesterday's attack is Ansar al-Islam, a Qaeda offshoot whose camps in Northern Iraq were destroyed early in the war. In recent weeks American officials acknowledged that members of the group had slipped into Iraq from Iran, had begun organizing in Baghdad and were suspected of plotting bombings, including the Aug. 7 attack on the Jordanian Embassy. In addition, Mr. Mir reported that Al Qaeda was carving out new training grounds in the border region between Iraq and Syria.

While there is no single root cause of terrorism, my interviews with terrorists over the past five years suggest that alienation, perceived humiliation and lack of political and economic opportunities make young men susceptible to extremism. It can evolve easily into violence when government institutions are weak and there is money available to pay for a holy war. America is unlikely to win the hearts and minds of committed terrorists. After some time on the job, it is hard for them to imagine another life. Several described jihad to me as being "addictive."

Thus the best way to fight them is to ensure that they are rejected by the broader population. Terrorists and guerrillas rely on getting at least some popular support. America's task will be to restore public safety in Iraq and put in place effective governing institutions that are run by Iraqis. It would also help if we involved more troops from other countries, to make clear that the war wasn't an American plot to steal Iraq's oil and denigrate Islam, as the extremists argue.

The goal of creating a better Iraq is a noble one, but a first step will be making sure that ordinary Iraqis find America's ideals and assistance more appealing than Al Qaeda's.

Jessica Stern, a lecturer at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, is author of "Terror in the Name of God: Why Religious Militants Kill."
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 08:18 am
"The goal of creating a better Iraq is a noble one..."

Stern is often very smart, a right/centrist with whom I usually disagree. I don't like the implication here that our goal in invading Iraq was to make it better -- unless one adds that it means making it better for us, or some of us, or American enterprise.

The Iraqis know intellectually and now from experience that we aren't there for noble reasons. We are fully able -- have the resources -- to provide good security and services (huge portion of the US military+assistance from the UN + Britain in "state of California"). We haven't just failed, we appear to have intended to fail. Which makes the Iraqis see us as both malign and stupid.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 08:46 am
Blatham

That's a very interesting battle between NO 10 and the BBC and I know you have some very strong opinions about the role of the Media. I also am well aware of your strong opionions regarding the way the war was justified. Let's leave that tiger sleep for a moment and talk about the Media and primarily the BBC which now has an operating budget of over 4 BILLION LBS--- that's roughly 6.5 BILLION $. This revenue comes from charging the owner of EVERY TELEVISION SET in the UK $275 pre year. What does the British taxpayer get for his money. They get a left wing beauacracy that has set itself up as the opposition to the elected gov't of the UK. I have the opinion (naive I'm sure) that responsible journalism (especially that which is publicly funded as opposed to mostly privately owned media in this country) should devote itself to reporting the facts and let the public decide the issues.

Gilligan couldn't be happy with his role as a reporter so he embelished the substance of his interview with Dr Kelly which in turn APPARENTLY caused the suicide of Kelly after he was questioned by the gov't. Gilligan may prove to be the next Jason Blair---at any rate I believe even you will agree that the public deserves more factual reporting and less bias by those who rule the BBC.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 08:51 am
Tartarin wrote:

We haven't just failed, we appear to have intended to fail. Which makes the Iraqis see us as both malign and stupid.

Where is your evidence that we "intended to fail" ? I"m certain Paul Bremmer would be interested in that "evidence.
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wolf
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 08:53 am
Just as you 'failed' 9/11.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 09:01 am
perc

The BBC is quite dearly loved by most Brits (rather like the similarly funded CBC here). In fact, as Lawrence Olivier's wife recently bemoaned, the problem is that the BBC is moving too much in the direction of American broadcasting. I do not agree that the UK needs more objective reporting than what the BBC offers. To assume that the media must serve as lapdog, mouthpiece and PR agent for whomever is in power is to remove objectivity.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 09:06 am
Yeah, well, our thermo-nuclear penis is biggern' anybody elses, so we get to make the rules . . .

Hmmph . . . guess i showed all them feriners . . .
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 09:07 am
Blatham wrote:

To assume that the media must serve as lapdog, mouthpiece and PR agent for whomever is in power is to remove objectivity.

How can the media serve as lapdog if they just report the facts (good or bad) and let the public decide?
I'm excluding editorial comment from these restrictions.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 09:10 am
Wolf

Rolling Eyes Question
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2003 09:10 am
Setanta

Shocked Question
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