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Vietnam Vet Upsets Army Recruiters

 
 
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 01:15 am
Published on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 by the New York Times
A Veteran's Iraq Message Upsets Army Recruiters
by Monica Davey

DULUTH, Minnessota - As those thinking of becoming soldiers arrive on the slushy doorstep of the Army recruiting station here, they cannot miss the message posted in bold black letters on the storefront right next door.

Scott Cameron, a wounded Vietnam veteran, with his sign noting the numbers of Americans killed or wounded in Iraq. ( Steve Burmeister / New York Times)

"Remember the Fallen Heroes," the sign reads, and then it ticks off numbers - the number of American troops killed in Iraq, the number wounded, the number of days gone by since this war began.

The sign, put up by a former soldier, has stirred intense, though always polite, debate in this city along the edge of Lake Superior in northeastern Minnesota. In a way, many of the nation's vast and complicated arguments about war are playing out on a single block here, around a simple piece of wood.

The seven military recruiters here, six of whom have themselves served in Iraq, want the sign taken away. "It's disheartening," Staff Sgt. Gary J. Capan, the station's commander, said. "Everyone knows that people are dying in Iraq, but to walk past this on the way to work every day is too much."

But Scott Cameron, a local man who was wounded in the Vietnam War, says his sign should remain. Mr. Cameron volunteers for a candidate for governor of Minnesota whose campaign opened a storefront office next door to the recruiting station, and he has permission to post the message he describes as "not antiwar, but pro-veteran."

"We're still taking casualties from Vietnam, years later," Mr. Cameron said recently. "Is the same thing going to happen again?" Despite the location, he insists that his purpose is not to prevent new recruits from signing up for the Army, but to honor those who made sacrifices. Still, Mr. Cameron also says, "Before they join the military, people better know what they're getting into."

Clashes like this are emerging elsewhere, too, even as the Army wrestles with the challenge of recruiting during a war, a struggle that left it 8 percent shy of its goal to bring in 80,000 new active-duty soldiers in the most recent recruiting year.

Some of the conflicts are part of a growing number of planned "counterrecruiting" efforts by antiwar groups, parents and individuals. They have fought to prevent recruiters from getting access to students' contact information from schools or have set up their own booths near recruiters' at job fairs to tell potential recruits why they should not sign up.

At George Mason University in Virginia, an Air Force veteran was arrested this fall while standing near a recruitment table on campus, wearing a sign that said "recruiters lie." At Kent State University in Ohio, a former marine climbed a recruiter's rock-climbing display in October and unfurled a peace banner.

But some of the debates, like the one here, have played out far more quietly, seeming less staged, more ambiguous and more like the natural edges of the country's debate over war seeping out on their own.

Early this month, State Senator Steve Kelley, a candidate for governor of Minnesota from the Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party (the Democratic party in Minnesota, whose name is a vestige of its liberal heritage), held a grand opening for his new campaign office along Superior Street, a main thoroughfare in downtown Duluth. When Mr. Cameron, a Kelley volunteer, asked whether he could put his sign up in the window of the office, alongside the collage of campaign posters, Mr. Kelley agreed.

Mr. Cameron, who was shot in Vietnam in 1969 and says he has since undergone 46 operations to repair the damage, said he felt compelled to post his message to remind people of the soldiers now lost. Decades ago, he said, he did not speak his mind about Vietnam because he feared he might harm support for the troops. He is not, he said, "going to be silent again."

Although Mr. Cameron, 55, acknowledged that he opposed the war in Iraq, he insisted that his sign was not about that at all. Its intent, he said, is simple and apolitical: to remember the troops, to care for veterans, to recognize what is being lost each day. "This is for the veterans," he said. "And the way I understand it, this is what we're over there fighting for in the first place - for my right to put a sign right there."

A few days after the opening, the office drew a visit from next door. Sergeant Capan, 31, said his recruiters were upset and wanted the sign removed. One woman who had just returned from duty in Iraq, he said, found the sign especially disconcerting and impersonal. "It was upsetting to veterans who don't look at their friends and colleagues killed as numbers on a list," he said.

In truth, neither side agrees on what precisely the sign is saying. Each sees its message through its own prism.

Sergeant Capan said he wondered why, if Mr. Cameron was truly trying to send a "pro-veterans" message, he had not instead posted a sign listing how many soldiers had returned home from Iraq safely and placed it somewhere else - an Interstate highway, say, or the Capitol. And Mr. Cameron said he suspected that Sergeant Capan's true fear was not so much the well-being of his recruiters as how the sign might deter potential recruits.

Sergeant Capan dismissed that notion. "Overall recruiting is going well, and this sign has not detracted," he said, adding, "Everybody who's joining the Army knows that there are deaths at war."

Elsewhere, it is nearly impossible to gauge how more concerted counterrecruiting efforts have affected military recruiting, if at all, said S. Douglas Smith, a spokesman for Army Recruiting Command at Fort Knox, Ky.

"There's been a good bit of activity this year," Mr. Smith said of the counterrecruiting efforts. "But in terms of impact, it's very hard to say." In this fiscal year, the Army hopes to recruit more than 105,000 active-duty and reserve soldiers by next fall. As of the end of November, Mr. Smith said, the Army was slightly ahead of its year-to-date goals.

Back in Duluth, Mr. Kelley ultimately decided to leave Mr. Cameron's sign alone, despite the Army's request that it be removed.

Mr. Kelley, who describes the centerpiece of his campaign for governor as education, found himself in the awkward position of being thrust into the debate over war, an issue most candidates for state and local offices rarely have to confront.

"In the past, I have taken positions in support of free speech," he said the other day, explaining his decision to let the sign remain. "And I thought if I'm going to try to be consistent about free speech, how could I tell Scott to take the sign down?"

Since news of the sign was reported in local newspapers, response has been mixed. A woman from Missouri had two pizzas delivered to reward Sergeant Capan's recruiters, while a veteran wrote to say that the sergeant needed "psychological screening" for even suggesting the removal of a disabled veteran's tribute to "his fallen brothers and sisters."

Mr. Cameron, meanwhile, says he has been asked to make copies of his sign (which he had made for $100 at a local sign company) and is thinking of marketing them.

For now, the neighbors on Superior Street have agreed to disagree. An offering of cookies by Mr. Cameron was not accepted, Sergeant Capan said, but Sergeant Capan insisted that relations on the street remained polite nonetheless.

"We're going to move on," he said. "We're soldiers."

© 2005 New York Times Company

Laughing Yup, yup, and war is very profitable, isn't it? Unless you're the guy who gets the bullet in the gullet.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 5,020 • Replies: 104
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woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 07:47 am
"For now, the neighbors on Superior Street have agreed to disagree. An offering of cookies by Mr. Cameron was not accepted, Sergeant Capan said, but Sergeant Capan insisted that relations on the street remained polite nonetheless.

"We're going to move on," he said. "We're soldiers." "

Which is what makes America the greatest country ont he Planet.

Regardless of the opinion of the poster, who has stated it's hatred for my country on numerous occassions, our ability to share opinions is most valuable.

Only Veterans (like myself) can truly understand the horrors of war. Only ignorant people, like the poster, will blindly criticize our military.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 08:06 am
People who join the military are being trained as warriors. The fact is, in a war, people get injured and killed. That is the reality. You can sugar coat it all you want, but when you join the military, you had better understand that at some point, your life may be put on the line.

I think that the guy with the sign is an ass.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 09:24 am
I like it. Simple and thought-provoking.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 02:55 pm
Yeppers.
0 Replies
 
ralpheb
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 06:55 pm
As a person who comes from a military family (between my family and my wifes family we have military service from WWI to present) I think the sign is not needed. The youth of America, at times, is very intelligent compared to when I was younger. They know what is going on and they know, understand and accept the risks/hazards. I know Vietnam veterans are split on this war. My father-in-law attends to funerals of the fallen area soldiers to show support for the families. Others have spent a lot of time protesting.
As the article says, each person is viewing the sign through their prism. I do agree with that. Personally, I think the veteran could find another way to pay tribute to our fallen than through a tally board.
0 Replies
 
englishmajor
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 10:41 pm
Is it not disgusting that army recruiters follow young boys around, as the documentary Fahrenheit 9/11 showed? They pursue them in schools, malls, wherever they can find them. They promise them all sorts of things, all lies. Did you hear about the soldier in Colorado who spray painted cars at the (I think it was) army base? He sprayed "recruiters lie".

A country, such as America, was born in blood. And it will die in blood. It is a violent place, and its people seem to think that "fighting' terrorism will end terrorism. Strange thinking. Violence only begets violence.

I admire that man with his sign. He's trying to warn silly young glory (hell) bound guys - he's an ex-vet as well. Having your guts shot out is not very glorious, but as he knows, these young hot shots don't have a clue. They think it's a video game. Besides, this is NOT an honourable 'war', it's a sham, like Vietnam was, as most Americans are beginning to figure out. Want to die for oil? Whatever, have it YOUR way.
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2005 08:41 am
I have never seen recruiters following boys around. Do they visit schools? Maybe. But I've not met someone who was actually recruited, versus joining on their own free will. And I know quite a few military people.

If your "educated" statment is based on F9/11, you need to do some actual research.


However, I do think it's important that those thinking of joining the military understand that they may be asked to do things they don't necessarily agree with and that they must do them. I think that they need to know that the military is not the way it is on tv, all glory and the good guys always win.

I think the guy with the sign might have been doing it for selfish purposes but as he said, it is his right and what they are fighting for; freedom.
0 Replies
 
ralpheb
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2005 10:42 am
You mean F 9/11 isn't the gospel truth! OH my!
English Major, one of these days you will understand more about the world then what you realize. IF this war was about "oil" as you presuppose, and IF the US was the was hungry people you think we were, we would have first, eliminated Canada and second taken over parts of the Middle-east.
You, and people like you , know enough to be a danger to society because you are afraid to stand up for what you believe. Should Canada ever have to go to war again, people like you will cower if called upon, or spend all your time on your little soap box spouting off as if you know what's going on because, hey you watch tv! WOW! I'm really impressed on that.
Are you upset that the US stood against England and Canada didn't? Is that what has you panties in a wad?

Recruiters NEVER follow students around. Recruiters put them selves in high traffic environments. Places such as malls, shopping centers, major stores etc. Recruiters are also invited by school districts to speak to students about the oppertunities the military can provide. Lies? What Lies? Oh, I know, If you join, we will help pay for your college. Something that alot of people cannot afford. Oh, I know, If you join the National Guard you will be an important part of your community. Such as when hurricanes, floods, blizards etc come around you will be there to help those people who are in danger. DAMN LIES ALL OF THEM.
That asshole that spray painted the bumpers of cars is mad because he heard only what he wanted to hear. Just like you.
0 Replies
 
englishmajor
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2005 07:15 pm
Bella,

Perhaps you missed the article and all the hoopla, about QUAKERS being spied on by Americans, because they were protesting ARMY recruiters at their local high school. They are considered terrorists, now. You want to see the article? You bet the creep recruiters go to high schools - they have all along. Where have you been? I used to work at a high school less than 10 years ago, and they were around all the time, sniffing around like ghouls, looking for dumb young guys to sign up. They even take kids who just have a GED. They aren't picky. They also go to ghettos and promise the kids money, free college, if they sign up. They forget to mention that they may GET KILLED, but what the hell. Death isn't something kids think will happen to them, thus the cycle of wars continue ad nauseum.

No, my 'educated' statement is based upon years of watching the world, reading HISTORY, something your president does not do, as well as Michael Moore's docu. If Americans have trouble with truth, that is not my problem.

Have you done some 'actual' research debunking Michael Moore's docu? I'd like to see it. Otherwise, you have nothing to say that isn't your own limited opinion.

If young guys are willing to die for Bushie and his cabal of money grubbing oil fools, so be it. However, I suspect a number of them will be whining to get into Canada, again, when the draft begins. I know of several people in just my small community who have moved here from the States to avoid having their boy(s) drafted, and/or they are sick of America and its politics. Which the world is, as well.

Whatever. I don't have to live with fear everyday which is manufactured very effectively by your media.

Have a fun day. Is it an amber alert day? LOL
0 Replies
 
englishmajor
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2005 07:26 pm
Here you go, Bella. Enjoy the read. Yup. Those Bas***ds don't follow kids around, or go to high schools. Sure. Do some research before you post next time.

By Lisa Myers, Douglas Pasternak, Rich Gardella and the NBC Investigative Unit
Updated: 6:18 p.m. ET Dec. 14, 2005

Lisa Myers
Senior investigative correspondent

WASHINGTON - A year ago, at a Quaker Meeting House in Lake Worth, Fla., a small group of activists met to plan a protest of military recruiting at local high schools. What they didn't know was that their meeting had come to the attention of the U.S. military.

A secret 400-page Defense Department document obtained by NBC News lists the Lake Worth meeting as a "threat" and one of more than 1,500 "suspicious incidents" across the country over a recent 10-month period.

"This peaceful, educationally oriented group being a threat is incredible," says Evy Grachow, a member of the Florida group called The Truth Project.

"This is incredible," adds group member Rich Hersh. "It's an example of paranoia by our government," he says. "We're not doing anything illegal."

The Defense Department document is the first inside look at how the U.S. military has stepped up intelligence collection inside this country since 9/11, which now includes the monitoring of peaceful anti-war and counter-military recruitment groups.

****
Yeah, and PETA and Greenpeace are terrorists. Right. Has America gone bonkers completely?
0 Replies
 
englishmajor
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2005 07:50 pm
ralpheb wrote:
You mean F 9/11 isn't the gospel truth! OH my!

Mr. Moore pointed out things that some Americans didn't want to hear. Too bad it upset you.
English Major, one of these days you will understand more about the world then what you realize. IF this war was about "oil" as you presuppose, and IF the US was the was hungry people you think we were, we would have first, eliminated Canada and second taken over parts of the Middle-east.

Oh wise one, do tell. Your wisdom astounds me! Your understanding of the world is to 'take over' someone else's country, is it? I know people USED to think that way, back in the days of knights and crusades. Has America gone back to the Dark Ages? The war IS ABOUT OIL. Bush even admitted it. What the he** do you think he was doing over there? Spreading democracy? Boy you are either braindead, naive or just plain dumb, or you just don't read anything that upsets your small vision of the planet.

Eliminate Canada? I don't think so. You need our resources too much. Besides, do you expect the world would just sit and watch America do that to a country that has always been purported to be a peacekeeping nation, much as your stupid president would like to see otherwise. America's game is to take over by buying everything out. You have taken over parts of the Middle East. What in he** do you think you're doing over there, if not to protect your oil interests? Now you can drive that pipeline right through to the Caspian Sea, which has been the US's objective since before 9/11. No mystery, look it up.


You, and people like you , know enough to be a danger to society because you are afraid to stand up for what you believe. Should Canada ever have to go to war again, people like you will cower if called upon, or spend all your time on your little soap box spouting off as if you know what's going on because, hey you watch tv! WOW! I'm really impressed on that.
Are you upset that the US stood against England and Canada didn't? Is that what has you panties in a wad?

Excuse me? I'm proud that our Prime Minister, whom I would bet you don't even know his name, has the balls to stand up against a bully like America and your stupid chimp president, and tell them to go to he**. England WISHES they had, now, according to Blair. They wouldn't have gotten bombed by 'terrorist's if they were not considered allies of the Yanks. No country in their right mind wants to be associated with a bunch of psychopathic Americans, bent on murder for oil. Read Noam Chomsky? Gore Vidal? Ever heard of them. Probably not....

Recruiters NEVER follow students around. Recruiters put them selves in high traffic environments. Places such as malls, shopping centers, major stores etc. Recruiters are also invited by school districts to speak to students about the oppertunities the military can provide. Lies? What Lies? Oh, I know, If you join, we will help pay for your college. Something that alot of people cannot afford. Oh, I know, If you join the National Guard you will be an important part of your community.

Haha. Yeah. Join the National Guard, and you will get your arse sent to be shot at for Rummy the Dummy and Dick, and the Chimp Pres. What an honour, I say!

If America did not invite violence, they would not need such a huge military. Ask yourself why, if your brain can handle the analyzing Laughing Maybe they piss of the planet? You, mister, need to travel more and see what the rest of the world thinks of America. Not much, I can tell you. And Yes, RECRUITERS DO FOLLOW STUDENTS AROUND. That was proven and seen on F 9/11. Of course, that docu was all just lies. Right.

Such as when hurricanes, floods, blizards etc come around you will be there to help those people who are in danger.

Oh?! You mean when CANADA got to New Orleans before ANYONE else? Because your National Guard was off fighting a so-called war? Canada can and does take care of it's own. You fools were the ones who needed Canada. Remember that next time you have a flood, hurricane. BTW, I hear only a small handful of loans have been granted for rebuilding in N. Orleans. So sad, when the citizens are not considered important, isn't it? Canada has a different policy. We take care of our people, first.


DAMN LIES ALL OF THEM.
That **** that spray painted the bumpers of cars is mad because he heard only what he wanted to hear. Just like you.


No, he was mad because he was lied to. You didn't read the story, but you're an expert on why he was mad. Makes for excellent debate with you unable2know people! Of course, you won't be getting your arse drafted or sent to Iraq, so what do you care? I have close relatives who were lied to about Iraq by recruiters who told them they wouldn't be sent to Iraq. Well, big surprise! They were! And most of these kids have done more than the ONE YEAR they were promised. Lots have been there 3 years or more. Course, that is not lying on the recruiters part, just mistaken..... Rolling Eyes .wake up/dummy up. The Pres LIES, his cabal lies, and so do your recruiters.
0 Replies
 
ralpheb
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2005 08:10 pm
Yo speed racer, I am a teacher so I know what goes on in my school system.
If your all up on movies, have you bothered to check out the rebuttle to F 9/11? The documentary is called ferinHYPE 9/11. Where is disputes EVERYTHING michael moore says. It also incudes the people moore interviewed who talked about what moore edited out from his interview.
As far as traveling? I've been half way around the world. Where you think you might be doing something important by reading and watching tv (or slanted views of movies) I have lived and particpated in the MAKING of history.
OH, and show me the several thousand articles where Bush has said that we are in Iraq to take over the oil? I'm sure if your spouting that he said it you will have no problems finding the article.
One last thing. America has defended YOUR country by the virtue that we defend our own. It seems that you have an issue with the United States and its military. How many members of the US military have you sat down with and talked to? What seems to be your issue with recruiters talking people with GED's? Are you saying that these people are not intelligent enough to make decisions?
How many Natiuonal Guard members have you spoken too? I'm sure they would love to hear about your vast experiences. You know, globe trotting the world, helping people first hand, you know, those things.
Or, are you of the mindset that it is only poor people from the inner cities who are in the military?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Dec, 2005 08:58 pm
The army has admitted that recruiters have used tactics that aren't exactly proper

Quote:
Army to order 1-day break from recruiting
Move comes amid reports of inappropriate sign-up methods
From Jamie McIntyre
CNN Washington Bureau

Wednesday, May 11, 2005 Posted: 12:04 PM EDT (1604 GMT)



WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The U.S. Army plans to stop recruiting activities for one day this month to review procedures that its 7,500 recruiters use, an Army official said.


http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/11/army.recruiting/
0 Replies
 
englishmajor
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2005 12:07 am
ralphleb,

runned outta words, did ya? lost yer dictionary?
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2005 12:09 am
At least he hasn't lost common decency. Ignore me, big deal. Truth hurt? Oh wait, that's what you always say, isn't it?
0 Replies
 
englishmajor
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2005 12:13 am
parados wrote:
The army has admitted that recruiters have used tactics that aren't exactly proper

Quote:
Army to order 1-day break from recruiting
Move comes amid reports of inappropriate sign-up methods
From Jamie McIntyre
CNN Washington Bureau

Wednesday, May 11, 2005 Posted: 12:04 PM EDT (1604 GMT)



WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The U.S. Army plans to stop recruiting activities for one day this month to review procedures that its 7,500 recruiters use, an Army official said.


http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/11/army.recruiting/


Right on, parados. Despicable people, preying on young guys. I can just hear them telling these kids: 'hey, you get to travel the world, meet new people, and kill them'. !!
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2005 12:19 am
OMG! What a horrible article! You think somebody might actually have done what? Hold a gun to someone's head? No, wait. That's not what it said, did it? Talk about putting your own spin on things. Rolling Eyes

They are investigating the matter. They are looking into it to be sure this is not going on. Idea

And I am sure you can hear them say they get to kill people! Juding from your posts, I think you might hear voices or at the very least see words that aren't there. Woman, get a flippin grip would you please!
0 Replies
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2005 11:25 pm
Having looked at the posts on this thread, I can only wonder at the statements made by some of you in view of the comments made to englishmajor, just because he/she posted an article about a fellow who was protesting outside of a recruiters office. America still believes in free speech, and it is certainly that vet's right to protest sending off young men, if that is what he wishes to do.

I think englishmajor meant metaphorically that these young men were told that they would see the world and then kill people. Of course, this is not what army/navy recruiters tell people who walk in their offices! But it is unfortunately what happens.

Parados happens to agree that the 'tactics' of the recruiters are worth reviewing. A bit late, perhaps, but better late than never.

Whoever you are, momma angel, you seem to have a personal vendatta against englishmajor. Don't you post on Christian threads? You do not seem very Christian, to me. I don't see where englishmajor -he/she- has tried to engage you in a response, so why don't you lay off? He/she has a right to their opinion even if it does not agree with yours. You are being rude, and quoting the Bible doesn't make you look better. Seems hypocritical, in fact.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Dec, 2005 11:43 pm
pachelbel wrote:
Having looked at the posts on this thread, I can only wonder at the statements made by some of you in view of the comments made to englishmajor, just because he/she posted an article about a fellow who was protesting outside of a recruiters office. America still believes in free speech, and it is certainly that vet's right to protest sending off young men, if that is what he wishes to do.

I think englishmajor meant metaphorically that these young men were told that they would see the world and then kill people. Of course, this is not what army/navy recruiters tell people who walk in their offices! But it is unfortunately what happens.

Parados happens to agree that the 'tactics' of the recruiters are worth reviewing. A bit late, perhaps, but better late than never.

Whoever you are, momma angel, you seem to have a personal vendatta against englishmajor. Don't you post on Christian threads? You do not seem very Christian, to me. I don't see where englishmajor -he/she- has tried to engage you in a response, so why don't you lay off? He/she has a right to their opinion even if it does not agree with yours. You are being rude, and quoting the Bible doesn't make you look better. Seems hypocritical, in fact.


I have not quoted the Bible in this thread, pachelbel. I am a Christian. I am also an American citizen that doesn't like it when someone rails against America and Americans as englishmajor does. We have tried and tried to get her to understand that we believe she has the right to what she thinks. We cannot seem to get her to understand that being told we are blind, stupid, and pathetic Americans is highly offensive.

She is a very well spoken woman. She can get her point across quite nicely without calling America or Americans names. That is all we have been trying to tell her.

I don't care if she answers me or not. The point is, all Americans are not stupid, pathetic, blind, or idiots, and no one appreciates anyone constantly telling them they are just because we don't see things the way she does.

Christian does not mean doormat. It does not mean I never speak my mind about what I believe in. I stand up for what I believe in, just as englishmajor obviously feels she is doing. I think she would be much more convincing if she didn't keep telling us we're too stupid to see the truth like she does.

Funny, this is the kind of thing that Christians keep getting accused of. Forcing their beliefs on others with words. What's the difference here? No matter what is posted in response to her, she comes right back with something else inflammatory and ridiculing. I admire her zeal. I just don't admire her tactics.

And as to a personal vendetta, no. I have had some very pleasant discussions with englishmajor in a different thread. She can be a very charming woman. She's bright, intelligent, and has an awesome sense of humor. She just seems to be a bit overrzealous when it comes to America and Americans IMO. We all have our passions. This seems to be hers. That's fine, I just ask that she do it without calling us names.
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