How Should a Christian Act?

Momma Angel wrote:

The difference is God is always going to tell you what is right. Your conscience is of man. You probably think some things are okay and I might not necessarily think they are okay. I don't think they are okay because the Word of God says they are not okay. I am relying on a superior (supernatural, if you will) power and you are relying on human things.

When will your conscience tell you something that contradicts the Holy Spirit. To clarify, I do not mean "morals" when I use the word "conscience". Obviously morality is applied by some social structure and is not innate to humans. "Conscience", on the other hand, is innate; it is God-given. Whether we choose to pay attention is up to us.

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Confusing.
Echi, are you a Theist or a Deist?
That information would sure make your stance a lot clearer.

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Doktor S wrote:

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God is something like the Source. God is eternal (as apposed to temporal). God is the reason behind all natural law...all natural occurrences.

'the source'?
'eternal'?
'creator of everything'?
Certainly sounds supernatural to me!
Or are there examples of those kinds of things in nature I have overlooked?

Whoa! "Creator" was not my word. I agree that sounds a little supernatural.

("Something like the Source") I don't agree that that implies anything supernatural. But I also admit it is pretty vague.

"God is the reason behind all natural law...all natural occurrences."
I will stand by this one. God is the Law. That's not any more supernatural than the Law of Nature. Things work according to natural law=Things work according to God's Will.

"God is eternal (as apposed to temporal)."
Natural law does not change (in my view). It is "eternal", not in that it has always been and will always be, but in the sense that it has nothing subject to the effects of time (like a law of science, I guess).

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Lash wrote:

queen annie wrote:
au1929 wrote:
Momma
That Christians should practice what the preach.

Personally, I can do without the preaching, too.

Hope you appreciate the difference in preaching and answering questions.

Oh definitely! World apart! Questions are asked, and answer invited in the asking. I like to answer questions--if I think I might be of help, that is--and I like to read answers of others, too. It is very educational, in a positive sense.
Preaching, to me, is the means by which many seek to justify their own positions by validating them by proxy--that is, if they can convince another, then they must be somehow on the right track--a reverse psychological type of convincing one's self. Alone or en masse.

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Quote:

"God is the reason behind all natural law...all natural occurrences."
I will stand by this one. God is the Law. That's not any more supernatural than the Law of Nature. Things work according to natural law=Things work according to God's Will.

So, in your model 'god' doesn't eally fill any role, and is just another name for 'nature'..which begs the question..why include god at all where he is not needed?
Unless of course you are a pantheist.?

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Doktor S wrote:

. . . Of course, if you think I am full of crap and the bible is the unerring word of god, feel free to ignore me.

You are not and the bible is, but, after me being gone for 10 pages, I can't keep up. I'll get back to ya.

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If I may butt in to your convo, Echi, Momma, and Lash--and Dok, too. It's taken me a bit to catch up, you guys are so prolific and stimulating! Very Happy

Anyway, Echi--I think I relate to your POV in many ways...

While I do call God often by 'He' (only because at one time I thought I would just use 'The' but it was a lot harder to be understood and for the sake of discussion, I let it go, but that is what I think inside) I don't think of God as a person or any kind of thing I could ever attempt to delineate or adequately describe. I understand 'source' completely, in fact I also use that word internally and in discussing quite often. And yet, while I also perceive of Creator, it is not in the sense of making playdo people to play army with, it is more in the sense of the Creation of mind. That is where the pantheism thing just falls short, and I am somewhat confused by that idea.

To say God is the source and energy of natural laws and is manifested in every atom there is, I do not think that God is limited to being a substance, or just non-sentient energy. I feel that the thing that makes God 'God' is that ultimately the source is Mind. And so therefore 'the Father' of us all. And as 'the Father' figure, so to speak, the governing force of the universe. Someone has to be boss even if it is not a 'someone.' I know I am probably muddying this us, so I'll stop. Just suffice it to say my conception of the inconceivable is by necessity outside of my ability to fully communicate. So much more yet something simple and in no way 'supernatural.' That word, to me, is meaningless anymore. What is 'super'natural--beyond nature? How could there be such a thing? I daresay it is perhaps just an expression that we apply to that which we cannot conceive of, in one way or another. And while my conceptions are vague, they are somehow still very real and not separate from me or my environment, and therefore not supernatural at all. Nature is the bounds outside of which nothing exists, IMO. Nature is all that man does not manufacture or devise--and even what man makes must ultimately be sourced in nature. And the means to devise and imagine things later invented and utilized requires another aspect of that same source, which is mind.

I digress.
The Holy Spirit thing I wanted to address...

I'll have to come back in a bit, but I've got some thoughts on conscience and HS.

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echi Wrote:

Quote:

When will your conscience tell you something that contradicts the Holy Spirit. To clarify, I do not mean "morals" when I use the word "conscience". Obviously morality is applied by some social structure and is not innate to humans. "Conscience", on the other hand, is innate; it is God-given. Whether we choose to pay attention is up to us.

I don't know how you can separate conscience from morals. Sorry, you are losing me here.

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Doktor S wrote:

Lash,

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Some people know. Some don't. God's in charge of that aspect of the relationship--not people. Sometimes, I didn't get what I felt was a clear answer and it infuriated me. Sometimes, my questions or actions were acknowledged.

Yes, but how do you 'know' if you 'know' if you have no authority aside from your interpretation to go by?
Everyone has the authority of their own relationship with the Holy Spirit to guide them through their choices.

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I'm glad. There is no us or them as far as I'm concerned.

Well, your own words:

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This is how we end up with so much crap, IMO, from that quarter.

Referring to those 'out of step with christ'
Which infers that YOU are in fact IN step with christ.
You err here. Actually, right now, I am famously out of step with Christ.
That is the 'us and them' I was Referring to. You have failed to establish what distinguishes you from 'those out of step with christ' as you both rely on your judgement, and all human judgement is flawed.

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Those out of step and those in step have been explained. Their status can change always.
I took trouble to say that everyone doesn't arrive at the same conclusions--and that Christianity is not a One Size Fits All proposition. It doesn't disturb me in the least that they follow varied paths--as long as they do get to know the One they worship well. If it's not Christianity, I wish they'd call it something else. I do understand that many people who say they are Christians can't stand it when people have different Christian beliefs. That kind of thinking takes us away from Christ's intent, IMO.

Yes, but if 'christians' are free to decide what 'the path' is, and not only that, the destination, where is any sense of coherency? Is it just a free for all make up your own beliefs as you go along and call it christianity? Are all versions of 'christianity' equal in worth?
That's for Christ to sort out. All I know is what I gathered from Jesus's words and choices. I have my own Interpreter, who during times of closeness with Christ, acknowledged me and carefully answered my prayers.
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A Christian always has questions--and that leads to intense study, that one day, likely leads to a quiet revelation and a close relationship with God. Questions are good.

I have yet to see the christian denomination that encourages questions. Faith and doubt aren't very combatable, as they tend to undermine eachother.
That's a shame.
And where did you get the idea I was a christian?
Where did you get the idea I got that idea? I used your statement about questions to give an example of how a person can go from "reading" the Bible--to having a close relationship with Christ, which leads to them being joined by the Interpreter.
I certainly am not...
Congratulations.

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Yes, but how do you 'know' if you 'know' if you have no authority aside from your interpretation to go by?
_______________________

Oddly, I was pondering how to explain this. I recalled an interesting convo we had in the office Friday--

Here goes.

You know you have communicated with the Holy Spirit in the same way a woman knows she's experienced an orgasm.

Some women instinctively know.

Some women think they have, but they haven't.

Some women lie and say they have, and never do.

But, ALL women know they have when they have.

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I would like to say that there are likely Christians here who disagree with my spirituality. I want them to know that I welcome opposing views and would not be insulted if they shared their views.

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So far, we are pretty much in tune. :wink:

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Momma Angel wrote:

highlyoriginal wrote:
Momma Angel,

Verse 6 clearly says, "...when you pray, go into a room by yourself, shut the door, and pray to your Father who is there in the secret place..."

Equally clearly, self-professed Christians have great difficulty with this teaching, as indeed they do with many others. It may well be that public worship is a fine thing, for both individuals and societies. It just happens not to be what Jesus recommended.

highlyoriginal,

You might want to go back to the very first verse in Chapter 6 and read the whole thing. Christ often talks of the hypocrites. And when He does, He always talks of hypocrites and those that are complete opposite.

And, if we were to stick only to our closets to pray or worship or speak of Christ, how would the Gospel be spread? I think the important thing is that we do it for God and not to be showy in our faith.

I did of course reread the whole thing before citing it. In particular, the opening line: "Be careful not to make a show of your religion before men..."

You talk of sticking 'to our closets to pray or worship or speak of Christ'. That is a subtle shift of argument. No one suggested not speaking publicly of Christ, only of not worshiping and praying in public, and not talking of your acts of charity. And it was not me doing the suggesting, it was Jesus.

You are right in saying that Jesus often talks of the hypocrites and contrasts their behavior with that of the true believer. I merely chose one example, one in which most Christians are closer to hypocrisy than Christianity. It was not difficult. Here's a challenge for you: cite a passage in which Jesus contrasts hypocrites and Christians, in an example in which today's Christians are closer to Christianity than hypocrisy.

As for how the Gospel could be spread, by far the most effective way would be by example.

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highlyoriginal wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
highlyoriginal wrote:
Momma Angel,

Verse 6 clearly says, "...when you pray, go into a room by yourself, shut the door, and pray to your Father who is there in the secret place..."

Equally clearly, self-professed Christians have great difficulty with this teaching, as indeed they do with many others. It may well be that public worship is a fine thing, for both individuals and societies. It just happens not to be what Jesus recommended.

highlyoriginal,

You might want to go back to the very first verse in Chapter 6 and read the whole thing. Christ often talks of the hypocrites. And when He does, He always talks of hypocrites and those that are complete opposite.

And, if we were to stick only to our closets to pray or worship or speak of Christ, how would the Gospel be spread? I think the important thing is that we do it for God and not to be showy in our faith.

I did of course reread the whole thing before citing it. In particular, the opening line: "Be careful not to make a show of your religion before men..."

You talk of sticking 'to our closets to pray or worship or speak of Christ'. That is a subtle shift of argument. No one suggested not speaking publicly of Christ, only of not worshiping and praying in public, and not talking of your acts of charity. And it was not me doing the suggesting, it was Jesus.

You are right in saying that Jesus often talks of the hypocrites and contrasts their behavior with that of the true believer. I merely chose one example, one in which most Christians are closer to hypocrisy than Christianity. It was not difficult. Here's a challenge for you: cite a passage in which Jesus contrasts hypocrites and Christians, in an example in which today's Christians are closer to Christianity than hypocrisy.

As for how the Gospel could be spread, by far the most effective way would be by example.

Colossians 3:16 ~ Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.

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Lash wrote:

I would like to say that there are likely Christians here who disagree with my spirituality.

Well, good thing it's not anyone's business but your own, and God's. The way I figure, if we each focus on agreement with God, then in the end we will find we are all together and agreeing to agree. It's not important to agree with one another, only to get growing in the same direction with our part of the True Vine.

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I want them to know that I welcome opposing views and would not be insulted if they shared their views.

That is the best way to grow and also to give to one another, as long as attitudes are such as yours. And Momma Angel's...

I just mention you guys as Christians--because for the most part that population is usually the hardest to discuss anything openly with, but you two ladies are the exception and so please know when it comes up (and it will) that I may say something not so favorable about such attitudes unlike yours, that the biggest problem I have with those types of attitudes is the negative representation of God that results--and the main reason I have never considered myself a christian and likely never will...it has always felt like a bad word in my mouth because of the damage done in God's name to other people who should be served the true gospel, honored guests at the table, instead of fried and fricasseed on a hell-sized spit.

But you guys are the examples of true followers--your fruits are love, from every indication on this forum.

If I may ask a personal question, maybe not personal, do either one of you go to church services? If so, what flavor?

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queen annie,

You are, indeed, a pleasure to chat with. Your receptiveness and civility is so welcome.

I go to church sometimes. I used to go quite a bit. However, I saw what a lot of the atheists, etc., have seen. Sunday worshippers and mid-week backsliders. When I do go, I attend a Baptist Church. Here in Louisiana (and the town I live) you have Baptist, one Catholic, a couple Pentecostal and a Seventh Day Adventist. Oh, and a Church of Christ.

We all sin, don't get me wrong. It's not whether a person is perfect in Christ. It's how are they in general. If someone lies one time, are they a liar? You can say that, but it doesn't mean you can never believe what they say. So, it's all a matter of how is that person more often than not for me.

Lash and I may have some differences in beliefs, but I think our basic set of beliefs are right in tune. It's the love of Christ and His teachings that we do our best to follow.

I used to wonder why atheists felt the way they do about Christianity. Well, I can now understand some of it. I just wish I could get them to understand that it is God and the message that should be focused on and not a particular brand of Christian. But, I can certainly understand their feelings when often even Christians cannot disagree agreeably.

BTW, I am glad that you see good fruits from me. That means a lot to me because I want to please my Lord. It all comes from Him, surely not from me.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Colossians 3:16 ~ Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.

It's illuminating that you could not meet the challenge, which was to cite an example from the sayings of Jesus. You previously said that he compared hypocrites with believers many times. Where, I repeat, is such a passage, against the teachings of which contemporary Christians would measure up as true followers rather than hypocrites?

The passage you quote is traditionally attributed to Paul, although the authorship is disputed. It goes on to say, "Wives, be subject to your husbands...Slaves, give entire obedience to your earthly masters..." Over the past two thousand years, those lines have been quoted many times by Christians, to justify the most terrible oppression. At least they could claim not to be hypocrites, I suppose.

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Ooops! I'm sorry. I guess I didn't read it right. You meant where He is pointing out someone being more Christian than hypocrite?

I'm getting kind of tired. Embarrassed

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Don't get tired, Momma...I just made it back.

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echi wrote:

Don't get tired, Momma...I just made it back.

Hey echi,

I'm not quite ready for bed. Just need to pay a bit moe attention to what is actually being said. echi, are you male or female?

Ok, I am looking for something, highlyoriginal. Also, are you male or female?

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