How Should a Christian Act?

Letty wrote:

Lash is a woman, snood. Just thought I would let you know that.

Which is relevant not at all to my post, but I will adjust pronouns accordingly.

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Lash wrote:

When the Holocaust is being discussed and emphasis is placed on Jews' "capitulation," as if they were in any way to blame for the Holocaust---it is the same thing as saying black Africans should have been smart enough to avoid slavetraders. Neither group was in any way responsible for what happened to them.

Lash--

Obviously, I am not qualified to speak for queen annie, but it does seem clear to me that her reference to the Holocaust and the (badly stated) "banker families" was in no way casting blame on Holocaust victims. I think she was merely trying to point out that a person can't be considered guilty or innocent of something just based on their religion. That was the topic at hand, I believe, at the time. Seen in a different context, I can understand how her remarks might have seemed insensitive, to say the least.
Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the Holocaust to get into a detailed discussion on the political or social causes, so I'll leave that to others.
But I am aware of the hostile reactions that some people have whenever Jewish people or Jewish groups are criticized in any way. This is much more apparent in the Middle East, where the blaming has not been as easy or as unanimous as in WWII. As support has grown for the Palestinians and as the Zionists have seen some criticism in some mainstream media, the accusations of anti-semitism have become more numerous and amplified. And whenever someone rushes to make that charge I get the sense that they are unable to form a rational argument. To be clear, I'm not accusing you of directly making this charge, but you do seem to be implying it. (I know you will correct me if I'm wrong.)
I am still waiting to find out your definition and personal feelings about the word "Zionist". You seem to find the use of the word offensive, which makes me wonder if you support their cause.

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echi wrote:

Lash wrote:
When the Holocaust is being discussed and emphasis is placed on Jews' "capitulation," as if they were in any way to blame for the Holocaust---it is the same thing as saying black Africans should have been smart enough to avoid slavetraders. Neither group was in any way responsible for what happened to them.

Lash--

Obviously, I am not qualified to speak for queen annie, but it does seem clear to me that her reference to the Holocaust and the (badly stated) "banker families" was in no way casting blame on Holocaust victims.

Think about why it was badly stated.
I think she was merely trying to point out that a person can't be considered guilty or innocent of something just based on their religion.

The Jews were innocent of the Holocaust. She clearly threw that **** up to discredit and blame Jews. There was no other reason.

Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the Holocaust to get into a detailed discussion on the political or social causes, so I'll leave that to others.

You should read about it.
But I am aware of the hostile reactions that some people have whenever Jewish people or Jewish groups are criticized in any way.
I'm so sick of this tripe. You call someone on racism against Jewish people, and they invariably trot this crap out. Spreading blame for the Holocaust on Jews is not a random criticism.
This is much more apparent in the Middle East, where the blaming has not been as easy or as unanimous as in WWII. As support has grown for the Palestinians and as the Zionists have seen some criticism in some mainstream media, the accusations of anti-semitism have become more numerous and amplified.
You're kidding, right?
And whenever someone rushes to make that charge I get the sense that they are unable to form a rational argument.

Funny, from someone who knows as little as you do about the subject. I have no argument to make. I detested what she said, and I said so.
I am still waiting to find out your definition and personal feelings about the word "Zionist". You seem to find the use of the word offensive, which makes me wonder if you support their cause.
I don't know why you assumed the word Zionist had any significance to me. It was what she said--not a word.

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Lash wrote:

echi wrote:
Lash wrote:
When the Holocaust is being discussed and emphasis is placed on Jews' "capitulation," as if they were in any way to blame for the Holocaust---it is the same thing as saying black Africans should have been smart enough to avoid slavetraders. Neither group was in any way responsible for what happened to them.

Lash--

Obviously, I am not qualified to speak for queen annie, but it does seem clear to me that her reference to the Holocaust and the (badly stated) "banker families" was in no way casting blame on Holocaust victims.

Think about why it was badly stated.

I won't assume to know the answer to that.

Quote:
I think she was merely trying to point out that a person can't be considered guilty or innocent of something just based on their religion.

The Jews were innocent of the Holocaust. She clearly threw that **** up to discredit and blame Jews. There was no other reason.

You refer to "the Jews" as if they are all of one mind. "The Jews" are individuals, each responsible for the predictable consequences of their own actions. Surely, the victims of the Holocaust were innocent. You cannot say, however, that every Jewish group and every Jewish person was innocent of anything. Jews are people like anyone else.
And as for queen annie's reasons for making the statement, I think she did attempt to clarify that for you, did she not? Why are you so quick to judge others' intentions? Can you not give her the benefit of the doubt?

Quote:

Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the Holocaust to get into a detailed discussion on the political or social causes, so I'll leave that to others.

You should read about it.
But I am aware of the hostile reactions that some people have whenever Jewish people or Jewish groups are criticized in any way.
I'm so sick of this tripe. You call someone on racism against Jewish people, and they invariably trot this crap out. Spreading blame for the Holocaust on Jews is not a random criticism.

I said nothing about any random criticism. And QA stated clearly that she is not a racist against Jewish or any other people. Calling someone a racist, BTW, is pretty serious. I think you ought to back it up or set it straight.
Quote:

This is much more apparent in the Middle East, where the blaming has not been as easy or as unanimous as in WWII. As support has grown for the Palestinians and as the Zionists have seen some criticism in some mainstream media, the accusations of anti-semitism have become more numerous and amplified.
You're kidding, right?

You'll have to be more specific.
Quote:

And whenever someone rushes to make that charge I get the sense that they are unable to form a rational argument.

Funny, from someone who knows as little as you do about the subject. I have no argument to make. I detested what she said, and I said so.
Admittedly, I know little about the Holocaust. It is interesting that you would use that as a convenient excuse to avoid further conversation on the topic at hand. It is also interesting that you omitted from your quote where I stated that I was not accusing you of this (I was only making a point about those who rush to judgment), yet you still respond as if you are guilty.
Quote:

I am still waiting to find out your definition and personal feelings about the word "Zionist". You seem to find the use of the word offensive, which makes me wonder if you support their cause.
I don't know why you assumed the word Zionist had any significance to me. It was what she said--not a word.

Then I misunderstood your line:
"I doubt there is a soul here who doesn't know the meaning of 'Zionist.' I also doubt there's a soul here who doesn't see through your facade."

(My mistake)

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My previous post is confusing...

Lash is in red.
I'm in black.

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echi wrote:

Lash wrote:
echi wrote:
Lash wrote:
When the Holocaust is being discussed and emphasis is placed on Jews' "capitulation," as if they were in any way to blame for the Holocaust---it is the same thing as saying black Africans should have been smart enough to avoid slavetraders. Neither group was in any way responsible for what happened to them.

Lash--

Obviously, I am not qualified to speak for queen annie, but it does seem clear to me that her reference to the Holocaust and the (badly stated) "banker families" was in no way casting blame on Holocaust victims.

Think about why it was badly stated.

I won't assume to know the answer to that.
If you know your own mind, you know the answer to it. You are the one who says it was badly stated; you must know why you said that. That reason is integral in my response. Tell me why you found it "badly stated."

Quote:
I think she was merely trying to point out that a person can't be considered guilty or innocent of something just based on their religion.

The Jews were innocent of the Holocaust. She clearly threw that **** up to discredit and blame Jews. There was no other reason.

You refer to "the Jews" as if they are all of one mind. "The Jews" are individuals, each responsible for the predictable consequences of their own actions. Surely, the victims of the Holocaust were innocent. You cannot say, however, that every Jewish group and every Jewish person was innocent of anything. Jews are people like anyone else.

Quote:

When races are attacked, such as African blacks, Native Americans, and Jews, no response by them to save themselves makes them culpable of the crime.
Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the Holocaust to get into a detailed discussion on the political or social causes, so I'll leave that to others.

You should read about it.
But I am aware of the hostile reactions that some people have whenever Jewish people or Jewish groups are criticized in any way.
I'm so sick of this tripe. You call someone on racism against Jewish people, and they invariably trot this crap out. Spreading blame for the Holocaust on Jews is not a random criticism.

I said nothing about any random criticism. And QA stated clearly that she is not a racist against Jewish or any other people. Calling someone a racist, BTW, is pretty serious.
Being one is worse. Letting it go without challenge is almost as bad.
And whenever someone rushes to make that charge I get the sense that they are unable to form a rational argument.

Funny, from someone who knows as little as you do about the subject. I have no argument to make. I detested what she said, and I said so.
Admittedly, I know little about the Holocaust. It is interesting that you would use that as a convenient excuse to avoid further conversation on the topic at hand. It is also interesting that you omitted from your quote where I stated that I was not accusing you of this (I was only making a point about those who rush to judgment), yet you still respond as if you are guilty.
Quote:

I'm more than a little surprised that you think anyone would waste their time discussing a subject with a persona who admits they don't know what they're talking about.
I am still waiting to find out your definition and personal feelings about the word "Zionist". You seem to find the use of the word offensive, which makes me wonder if you support their cause.
I don't know why you assumed the word Zionist had any significance to me. It was what she said--not a word.

Then I misunderstood your line:
"I doubt there is a soul here who doesn't know the meaning of 'Zionist.' I also doubt there's a soul here who doesn't see through your facade."
Obviously.(My mistake)
Naturally.[/quote]
This has developed into a parsing nightmare. If, and think about it first, please, if you want to flesh out our opinions re this issue--pick 1 or 2 points and start over with coherent sentences/questions.

My new remarks are blue.

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it must take you folks hours to do the color and quoting

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Do you think there is a Reader's Digest copy someplace, Husker?

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Lash wrote:

[
This has developed into a parsing nightmare.

Agreed.

First off, don't add your own emphasis to my words without making a note, please. You have done it twice.

I stated that I know relatively little about the details of the Holocaust. You and I are not discussing the Holocaust. I am simply pointing out what I recognize (from having seen it so much) as the fierce and lopsided reaction to the slightest hint of criticism toward Zionism or practically any Jewish group. It is clearly meant to intimidate any who dare express such criticism.
If you contend that a certain level of knowledge of the Holocaust is necessary in order to discuss the subject of "reaction to Jewish criticism", then at least provide me with your reasons. Otherwise it just looks like a poor excuse.

Now, as per your request...
QA's statement about "banker families" was IMO "badly stated". I feel it was badly stated because I know that some people read such statements as if they contain a hidden, anti-semitic meaning. I have read most of queen annie's posts and have seen nothing to indicate that she is a hateful person and nothing to indicate that she would pussyfoot. That said, I do not know her outside of A2K. And if you know something about her that I don't, why do you not post that information as evidence to support your accusations? If that evidence does not exist, then why not give her the benefit of the doubt?

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echi--

You say we aren't discussing the Holocaust. I say we are.

You imply my reaction was a "fierce and lopsided reaction to the slightest hint of criticism toward Zionism or practically any Jewish group."

I say it was a strong rebuke of an implication that Jews were partially to blame for the Holocaust.

You say it was "clearly meant to intimidate any who dare express such criticism."

I say that's bullshit. I expressed my feelings. Intimidation wasn't given a thought. Expression of my opinion was my goal. I am satisfied that my feelings were communicated effectively.

You stated, "If you contend that a certain level of knowledge of the Holocaust is necessary in order to discuss the subject of "reaction to Jewish criticism", then at least provide me with your reasons."

Actually, I contend that if I'm not having this conversation with the one who dragged the "banker Jews" into blame for the Holocaust, this is a waste of my time...unless you agree a "goodly" group of Jews, you know, those of the "banker" Jews, were actively involved in the Holocaust. Then, we can proceed.

I gave her an opportunity to clarify, and her response was all I needed to form my opinion of her opinion on the subject.

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you do understand that if you guys hadn't killed Jesus there wouldn't have been a holocaust, right?

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Any Romans here?

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He may mean Roman Polanski.

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I still laugh out loud when I think about the Curb Your Enthusiasm episode where Larry ate the baby Jesus cookie.

His wife, and her family, (Christians) were horrified.

"I'll make it up to you," he says.

"Make it up to us? Larry, you just ate our Lord and Savior!"

... But, I digress.

Sorry.

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Thank you, Echi. And you are right, my initial post on this was 'badly stated.' I avoided the word Zionist, but I see it wasn't necessary and the best thing would have been to not say a word. Discretion being the better part of valor.

Lash, like I said, I didn't mean to offend.

Your opinion was already formed before my attempt to clarify--and said attempt was barely acknowledged; evidenced by the consistent wording in your posts which demonstrated that your mind was made up the moment you felt offended.

As far as challenging your accusation of being a racist--what for?

Whether or not you think I am racist--I still am not. And I never have been. I rarely judge others and I never pre-judge based on any point of group connection.

I've also never been one to descend into reciprocal name-calling, and I didn't see the point in validating your accusations by a 'challenge' nor did I feel pressed to offer a 'defense'; primarily because I am not offended and don't feel the need to defend myself.

That being said, perhaps we might agree on one thing: that we've derailed Momma Angel's thread too long already.

And for that, I apologize, MA.

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Lash wrote:

You stated, "If you contend that a certain level of knowledge of the Holocaust is necessary in order to discuss the subject of "reaction to Jewish criticism", then at least provide me with your reasons."

Actually, I contend that if I'm not having this conversation with the one who dragged the "banker Jews" into blame for the Holocaust, this is a waste of my time...

I never attempted to argue queen annie's case for her. I was primarily interested in the manner in which you responded to her statements. You assert that it is merely my opinion that your reaction was "lopsided", but my opinion is supported by your repeated charges of racism and other unsupported claims, which I need not get into, as QA seems to have done already.
Again, my interest is in your reaction. If that is not a conversation that you are willing to have then I guess the time wasted belonged to both of us.

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Quote:

neo said to Bartikus:

The holocaust was perpetrated by nominal Lutherans and Catholics, mostly -

Not Christians - and certainly not by Jesus.

Quote:

Queen Annie replied:

I think that there was a goodly participation by a certain class of Jews, as well. Those of the banker families.

Lash wrote:

queen annie wrote:
I think that there was a goodly participation by a certain class of Jews, as well. Those of the banker families.

This sounds like a slur. Do you have any evidence to support this statement?

Lash wrote:

The "banker" families? Turning in fellow Jews...?

I have never heard such a thing--of course, that doesn't mean it's not true--however, when someone makes such an assertion, they should be prepared to show evidence or retract it.

It sounds very much like a stereotypical slur. I'd appreciate evidence to support the statement, or a retraction.

I gave at least two opportunities for clarification. My mind was obviously not made up, evidenced by my words.

Now, that the record of the discussion is accurate, I don't mind leaving it at that.

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Whatever satisfies you, Lash--it's all yours.

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what does satisfy you lash? Outside of your trampoline fixation anyway....

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whoa..whoa...quite the firey thread here Razz

I wanted to respond to the original post. I sure am not a definitive authority on how a Christian should act, but i've got a good story if anyone cares to listen.

I am not a Christian, but many of in my family are. It was Christmas, and I was spending it with family. An uncle and an aunt of mine are Christians. They enjoy taking part in the church community, they grew up as 'good farming people'.

Conversation turns to politics between my uncle, myself, my aunt, and my cousin during a drive. Myself and my cuz are not Christian; they are. Out comes all sorts of racial slurs from my uncles mouth "the muslims this and that, the Native population, the anybody-who-is-not-christian are trying to persecute and take over Canadian way of life".

Ok. I was quite shocked. This man leads a good life. I have known him since I was a baby. He and my aunt both go out of their way to help people regardless of race, religion, or personal fault. They are loving, tolerant in action, and go about thier own lives with hard work and community as their backbone. I have seen them in daily action treating others as equals.

So I laughed. I spouted my own radical ideas and prejudices. He laughed.
We continues to go back and forth for a while, and then we got distracted by the landscape and a perfect picture opportunity.

My point is this: A christian should act like any other decent human being. I don't care if you love God or not; and a tolerant christian will often recognize and tolerate this difference. I have room enough to recognize and tolerate someone loving God. All of us have our faults and prejudices; and that is fine, so long as we can live our lives without actively destroying other people.

Thanks for listening to my gushy story.

:wink:

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