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America... Spying on Americans

 
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jan, 2006 09:44 am
Roxxxanne wrote:
woiyo wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:
[qoute]the portion that attempts to impede the President's inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches for purposes of foreign intelligence during a time of war should be found unconstitutional..


That is so preposterous, it's laughable.


You want something laughable.....

Explain to us WHY!


Read the Constitution. Oh wait, I asked you to read it. EDIT: Have someone read it to you. Embarrassed[/quote]

Why don't you read it to us smart a$$ and show us exactly where it says what you asert.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jan, 2006 09:50 am
Cyclo,

There are several arguments going on and you know my position, to repeat, is to allow any Pres this authority with oversight. Oversight is somewhat questionable currently. Advising congressional leadership is oversight to a small degree.

However, many "wackers" on this post are arguing the constitutionality of the process.

Those wackers would have been very upset during WW2 if we could not eavesdrop on German communications in this country going both ways.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jan, 2006 09:54 am
Probably so. I just want there to be some oversight, because I feel that all Human beings, Republican or Democrat, are susceptible to failings.

It would be difficult for anyone not to misuse such a program, to misuse the information. Without oversight, it isn't even neccessarily the fault of those at the top for things to go wrong. I mean, Bush may really feel what he is doing is neccessary and he may not know of misuses; because he isn't told about them. Plausible deniability and all that.

I'm not sure that congressional leadership was given the 'whole story' about the extent of what was happening, or allowed to dissent when they didn't agree. That's not oversight, when the overseer isn't allowed to take any action!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jan, 2006 09:55 am
Re Spy Program, General Reveals Shaky Grip on 4th Amendment
Jonathan Landay with Knight Ridder really nailed down the Bush administration's violation of the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution. This demonstrates why I have so much respect for some of the Knight Ridder investigative journalists. As I've said before, the investigative journalism torch has been passed to Knight Ridder from the Washington Post. ---BBB

Defending Spy Program, General Reveals Shaky Grip on 4th Amendment
By E&P Staff
Published: January 23, 2006 10:05 PM ET
NEW YORK

The former national director of the National Security Agency, in an appearance today before the National Press Club in Washington, D.C., today, appeared to be unfamiliar with the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution when pressed by a reporter with Knight Ridder's Washington office -- despite his claims that he was actually something of an expert on it.

General Michael Hayden, principal deputy director of National Intelligence with the Office of National Intelligence, talked with reporters about the current controversy surrounding the National Security Agency's warrantless monitoring of communications of suspected al Qaeda terrorists. Hayden has been in this position since last April, but was NSA director when the NSA monitoring program began in 2001.

As the last journalist to get in a question, Jonathan Landay, a well-regarded investigative reporter for Knight Ridder, noted that Gen. Hayden repeatedly referred to the Fourth Amendment's search standard of "reasonableness" without mentioning that it also demands "probable cause." Hayden seemed to deny that the amendment included any such thing, or was simply ignoring it.

Here is the exchange, along with the entire Fourth Amendment at the end.

***

QUESTION: Jonathan Landay with Knight Ridder. I'd like to stay on the same issue, and that had to do with the standard by which you use to target your wiretaps. I'm no lawyer, but my understanding is that the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution specifies that you must have probable cause to be able to do a search that does not violate an American's right against unlawful searches and seizures. Do you use --

GEN. HAYDEN: No, actually -- the Fourth Amendment actually protects all of us against unreasonable search and seizure.

QUESTION: But the --

GEN. HAYDEN: That's what it says.

QUESTION: But the measure is probable cause, I believe.

GEN. HAYDEN: The amendment says unreasonable search and seizure.

QUESTION: But does it not say probable --

GEN. HAYDEN: No. The amendment says --

QUESTION: The court standard, the legal standard --

GEN. HAYDEN: -- unreasonable search and seizure.

QUESTION: The legal standard is probable cause, General. You used the terms just a few minutes ago, "We reasonably believe." And a FISA court, my understanding is, would not give you a warrant if you went before them and say "we reasonably believe"; you have to go to the FISA court, or the attorney general has to go to the FISA court and say, "we have probable cause."

And so what many people believe -- and I'd like you to respond to this -- is that what you've actually done is crafted a detour around the FISA court by creating a new standard of "reasonably believe" in place of probable cause because the FISA court will not give you a warrant based on reasonable belief, you have to show probable cause. Could you respond to that, please?

GEN. HAYDEN: Sure. I didn't craft the authorization. I am responding to a lawful order. All right? The attorney general has averred to the lawfulness of the order.

Just to be very clear -- and believe me, if there's any amendment to the Constitution that employees of the National Security Agency are familiar with, it's the Fourth. And it is a reasonableness standard in the Fourth Amendment. And so what you've raised to me -- and I'm not a lawyer, and don't want to become one -- what you've raised to me is, in terms of quoting the Fourth Amendment, is an issue of the Constitution. The constitutional standard is "reasonable." And we believe -- I am convinced that we are lawful because what it is we're doing is reasonable.

***

Here's the Fourth Amendment: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. "

A new Gallup poll released Monday showed that 51% of Americans said the administration was wrong to intercept conversations involving a party inside the U.S. without a warrant. In response to another question, 58% said they support the appointment of a special prosecutor to investigate the program.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jan, 2006 10:13 am
woiyo, if Kerry was in office doing the same thing, you and I would be happy, but the whackos would be too, which is transparently obvious. The hatred for George Bush has incapacitated their ability to even think rationally.

I would bet any amount of money I could come up with a poll, with questions framed the way I want them framed, to show that the vast majority of all Americans think we should spy on terrorist communications coming into the U.S.

Are some of you people suicidal, or what?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jan, 2006 10:17 am
I am not a Bush hater, I find in inhumane to hate morons.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jan, 2006 10:22 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Should be found unconstitutional isn't the same thing as is unconstitutional, is it?


Correct. I'm glad you recognize that. It's also true to say that while DL believes it should be found Constitutional, that's not the same thing as is Constitutional. And I believe I've stated several times now that the Supreme Court will make the determination.

Quote:
As far as I can tell the law is not currently considered to be unconstitutional in any way. If the law was to be changed, fine, but you cannot simply ignore it as Bush has chosen to do.


If it's unconstitutional, he can; if it's Constitutional, he cannot.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jan, 2006 10:40 am
Until it has been judged to be unconstitutional, cannot it be said to be constitutional?

After all, it is nothing new and has been used for quite some time. There has been ample opportunity for the law to have been challenged before this, and it has not happened; so can Bush break the law with impunity before it has been judged unconstitutional, because his lawyers have told him that it might be unconstitutional?

Cheers

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jan, 2006 10:47 am
Presidential power a key issue in debate over eavesdropping
Posted on Mon, Jan. 23, 2006
Presidential power a key issue in debate over eavesdropping
By Ron Hutcheson
Knight Ridder Newspapers
WASHINGTON

The dispute over President Bush's domestic spying program hinges on the same tough question that vexed the nation's founders: How much power does a president have?

Bush and his legal advisers argue that the Constitution and federal law give him the right to authorize domestic eavesdropping without a warrant from a court or specific approval from Congress. The electronic surveillance, conducted by the super-secret National Security Agency, is aimed at communications between the United States and suspected terrorists overseas.

Bush's critics, citing the same legal sources, charge that he exceeded his legal and constitutional authority and could be impeached for breaking the law.

Here's a look at the legal underpinnings of the controversy:

THE CONSTITUTION

The foundation for Bush's view of his authority is Article II of the Constitution, which says "the president shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States."

No one disputes that the president has broad power to protect the nation in wartime or that he's the civilian boss of the military, but there's sharp disagreement over the extent of presidential authority. Bush says the constitutional clause empowers him to use any and all available tools - including electronic surveillance - to guard against terrorist attacks.

"My most important job is to protect the security of the American people," the president said Monday at Kansas State University. "What I'm telling you is we're using all assets at our disposal to protect you in a different kind of war."

The Constitution is a carefully constructed system of checks and balances, many of which are intended to limit presidential power.

For example, it gives Congress - not the president - the power to declare war, "to raise and support armies," to maintain a navy and to "make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces."

The Fourth Amendment guarantees people the right to be secure from "unreasonable searches and seizures." No court shall issue a search warrant, it says, except upon a showing that there's "probable cause" to think that a law is being broken and the warrant seeker describes the specific place to be searched and the person or things to be seized.

Critics say Bush's assertion of power recognizes no limits to his authority so long as he's acting to protect America from harm.

Previous Supreme Court rulings also check presidential authority.

In 1952, the court blocked President Harry S Truman's plan to take over the steel industry during the Korean War. The court rejected Truman's assertion that his role as commander in chief gave him the power to avert a labor strike that might disrupt war supplies.

In 2004, the court directly challenged Bush's sweeping claim of wartime powers in the fight against terrorism. The justices agreed that Bush could detain U.S. citizens as enemy combatants, but said he couldn't deny the captives access to the courts.

"We have long since made it clear that a state of war is not a blank check for the president when it comes to the rights of the nation's citizens," Justice Sandra Day O'Connor wrote.

FEDERAL LAW

Bush and his advisers contend that Congress "confirmed and supplemented" the president's constitutional power by authorizing the use of force against terrorists three days after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. Lawmakers authorized the president to "use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations or persons" involved in the attacks.

In a recent 42-page statement on the eavesdropping issue, the Bush Justice Department contended that the congressional resolution, coupled with the president's authority as commander in chief, "places the president at the zenith of his powers" to wage war.

"Electronic surveillance is a fundamental tool of war that must be included in any natural reading of the (resolution's) authorization to use `all necessary and appropriate force,'" the Justice Department contended.

Bush's critics say employing the use-of-force resolution to justify domestic surveillance is a stretch.

"It does not authorize the president to do anything other than use force. It doesn't say he can wiretap people in the United States," said Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif.

The critics charge that Bush's approach violates the Federal Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978.

Congress passed that act in response to abuses of power during the Nixon administration that included electronic surveillance of the president's political opponents and critics in the news media.

The law also was intended to plug a gap in the legal framework that governs federal eavesdropping. The government has wide latitude to spy overseas for national security, but domestic eavesdropping is far more sensitive.

FISA asserts that electronic surveillance within the United States requires court oversight to avoid running afoul of the prohibition against unreasonable searches in the Fourth Amendment.

FISA established a special court to deal with secret intelligence investigations, and requires warrants for electronic surveillance in cases that involve national security. If government agents need to move quickly, they're permitted to act first and then have up to three days to get court warrants.

FISA makes it a crime to engage in electronic surveillance outside the statute's framework, unless another law authorizes it.

Bush advisers say technological advances and the unique nature of the war on terrorism made the FISA warrant procedure unworkable. They say they considered asking Congress to update the law, but decided against it to avoid possible disclosure of the government's intelligence-gathering techniques.

They contend that the congressional use-of-force resolution and the president's constitutional power as commander in chief override FISA.

"It would be unreasonable and wholly impractical to demand that Congress specifically amend FISA in order to assist the president in defending the nation," the Justice Department said.

But the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service, the research arm of Congress, concluded in a report Jan. 5 that the administration's legal justification "does not seem to be as well-grounded" as Bush's advisers claim.

The report also questioned the notion that Bush could simply ignore FISA.

"It appears unlikely that a court would hold that Congress has expressly or impliedly authorized the NSA electronic surveillance operations ... ," it said.

"While courts have generally accepted that the president has the power to conduct domestic electronic surveillance within the United States inside the constraints of the Fourth Amendment, no court has held squarely that the Constitution disables Congress from endeavoring to set limits on that power."

Administration officials say they can bypass FISA and use a lower legal standard than the act requires and than the language in the Fourth Amendment calls for in deciding when to eavesdrop. FISA requires federal agents to demonstrate that there's "probable cause" in order to get an eavesdropping warrant, the same language used in the amendment. The National Security Agency, acting without court oversight, says it engages in electronic surveillance if it considers the eavesdropping "reasonable."

"The trigger is quicker and a bit softer than it is for a FISA warrant, but the intrusion into privacy is also limited: only international calls and only those we have a reasonable basis to believe involve al-Qaida or one of its affiliates," Air Force Gen. Michael Hayden, one architect of the eavesdropping, said Monday at the National Press Club.

Bush's critics charge that the administration's position is an unprecedented power grab that calls into question the president's commitment to rule of law.

"Congress established the FISA court precisely to be a check on executive power to wiretap," former Vice President Al Gore charged last week.

"FISA does not contain a provision allowing the president to waive its application," Feinstein said. "If the law needed changing, we could have done so."

Senate hearings on the issue are scheduled for next month. Civil liberties groups have sued seeking to shut down the eavesdropping program. Bush says he won't back down.

---

To learn more online:

For the Congressional Research Service report, go to www.fas.org/sgp/crs/intel/m010506.pdf

For President Bush's remarks Monday and other information on his position, go to www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/nationalsecurity

For the American Civil Liberties Union's view, go to www.aclu.org

For a white paper from the Justice Department on the NSA's eavesdropping, go to White Paper

A letter from Attorney General Alberto Gonzales to Senator Bill Frist regarding NSA eavesdropping.

The Fourth Amendment to the Constitution is at www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.table.html#articleiv

Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, on the president's role as commander in chief is at www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.articleii.html#section2
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jan, 2006 11:54 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Until it has been judged to be unconstitutional, cannot it be said to be constitutional?

After all, it is nothing new and has been used for quite some time. There has been ample opportunity for the law to have been challenged before this, and it has not happened; so can Bush break the law with impunity before it has been judged unconstitutional, because his lawyers have told him that it might be unconstitutional?

Cheers

Cycloptichorn


It does raise the issue of why Bush even took an oath to uphold the law. If a law is not constitutional until the court says it is then a President can ignore any law that has not been tested in court.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jan, 2006 11:56 am
Remember that Bush's highest and chief responsibility is to uphold the laws of the United States of America, embodied in our Constitution.

He took an oath to do so! The oath said nothing about defending from terrorism.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jan, 2006 12:10 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Until it has been judged to be unconstitutional, cannot it be said to be constitutional?


You can say whatever you want, but that doesn't make it so.

Quote:
After all, it is nothing new and has been used for quite some time. There has been ample opportunity for the law to have been challenged before this, and it has not happened; so can Bush break the law with impunity before it has been judged unconstitutional, because his lawyers have told him that it might be unconstitutional?

Cheers

Cycloptichorn


He may only lawfully do so if it is in fact unconstitutional.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jan, 2006 12:17 pm
My God Tico...
So a President can find a lawyer to tell him a law is unconstitutional and then he can ignore it? And if he declares he is doing it for national security then it will never be tested.

Seems like the perfect catch22 for an overreaching executive.

The understanding with most laws is they are constitutional and enforced UNTIL they are challenged in court. You have just thrown that understanding on its ear.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jan, 2006 12:26 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Remember that Bush's highest and chief responsibility is to uphold the laws of the United States of America, embodied in our Constitution.

He took an oath to do so! The oath said nothing about defending from terrorism.

Cycloptichorn


Thats not true.
The actual oath states...

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Notice the word DEFEND.

So,it can be argued that any attack on the US is an attack on the constitution.
Otherwise,we would have never gotten involved in any war,because no country has ever directly attacked the piece of paper the constitution is written on.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jan, 2006 12:26 pm
I agree with Parados. Obviously neither the president nor his lawyers have the power to declare a law unconstitutional, it doesn't matter what their interpretation is.

I think we can also safely conclude that a law may assumed to be correct and constitutional until it has been proven to be otherwise by the SC; therefore, one cannot go around breaking a law just because it has not been ruled on by the SC yet.

It would seem that you agree with me that Bush violated the law, even though you believe the law to be unconstitutional.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jan, 2006 12:30 pm
mysteryman
mysteryman wrote:

Thats not true.
The actual oath states...
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Notice the word DEFEND.

So,it can be argued that any attack on the US is an attack on the constitution.
Otherwise,we would have never gotten involved in any war,because no country has ever directly attacked the piece of paper the constitution is written on.


Mysteryman, did you fall on your head getting out of bed this morning?

BBB Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jan, 2006 12:34 pm
parados wrote:
My God Tico...
So a President can find a lawyer to tell him a law is unconstitutional and then he can ignore it?


<gasp!> Yes, parados! And he can ignore it even if the lawyer says its Constitutional. Hell, he can ignore it without consulting a lawyer. While were talking about things a President can do, let's not forget he can run across the South Lawn in his underroos on a sunny day. And he can call up the Prime Minister of England and shout, "Howdy, T-Man!," at the top of his lungs. A President can do lots of things.

Quote:
And if he declares he is doing it for national security then it will never be tested.


Ahh, but it will be tested.

Quote:
Seems like the perfect catch22 for an overreaching executive.


No, that's why there's a Judiciary (and a Legislature).
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jan, 2006 12:36 pm
BBB,when was the last time a foreign power attacked the constitution?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jan, 2006 12:40 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
parados wrote:
My God Tico...
So a President can find a lawyer to tell him a law is unconstitutional and then he can ignore it?


<gasp!> Yes, parados! And he can ignore it even if the lawyer says its Constitutional. Hell, he can ignore it without consulting a lawyer. While were talking about things a President can do, let's not forget he can run across the South Lawn in his underroos on a sunny day. And he can call up the Prime Minister of England and shout, "Howdy, T-Man!," at the top of his lungs. A President can do lots of things.

Quote:
And if he declares he is doing it for national security then it will never be tested.


Ahh, but it will be tested.
How will it be tested? Since there is no aggrieved party because the abuse is secret who can file suit? What court will rule on constitutionality without an actual case?
Quote:

Quote:
Seems like the perfect catch22 for an overreaching executive.


No, that's why there's a Judiciary (and a Legislature).
If the President keeps it secret and doesn't inform the legislature of the details how can they have any oversight?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jan, 2006 12:41 pm
Quote:
So,it can be argued that any attack on the US is an attack on the constitution.


Not successfully, it can't. The constitution cannot be attacked by force of arms, but by lawlessness; the very thing Bush is doing, in fact.

Quote:
Otherwise,we would have never gotten involved in any war,because no country has ever directly attacked the piece of paper the constitution is written on.


Untrue, the power to declare and wage war is clearly outlined in the Constitution as being held by Congress.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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