9
   

America... Spying on Americans

 
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 09:37 am
Ticomaya wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
McGentrix wrote:

So, which part of the 4th amendment was broken?


The part where the NSA listened to the phone calls of Americans without first obtaining a warrant.


Do you agree that NSA can properly listen to the phone calls of internationals, including their calls to Americans?


Agree with who?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 09:43 am
With all those who believe it is lawful.


Also, do you agree that the leak of this classified information to the NYT should be investigated as vigorously as the Plame leak?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 09:47 am
Ticomaya wrote:
With all those who believe it is lawful.


No.


Quote:
Also, do you agree that the leak of this classified information to the NYT should be investigated as vigorously as the Plame leak?


No.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 09:49 am
Stevepax wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
roverroad wrote:
A great american once said "Give me liberty, or give me death!" I would rather be killed by a terrorist than to give up my liberties.


What civil liberties are you giving up?


If you want to know that, read it. There are also much analysis as to just how it does it. Bush has already issued an apology for his unlawful acts. Of course, the rightwingers won't give a **** about the fact that he broke the law because it didn't involve sex with a plump 19 year old!


Here's what he actually said:

Quote:
Bush left no doubt that he will continue authorizing the program.

"I intend to do so for as long as our nation faces a continuing threat from al-Qaida and related groups," he said.


Not exactly an apology. Of course, if you're not calling caves in Afghanistan, you probably don't need to worry.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 09:51 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Do you agree that NSA can properly listen to the phone calls of internationals, including their calls to Americans?


Agree with who?


With all those who believe it is lawful.


No.


Okay. Review the Foreign Intelligence Security Act (50 USC 1801, et seq.), and then let me know if you've changed your mind.


FD wrote:
Tico wrote:
Also, do you agree that the leak of this classified information to the NYT should be investigated as vigorously as the Plame leak?


No.


Why not?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 09:54 am
Sorry ... here's a link to the FISA ...... LINK
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 10:10 am
Ticomaya wrote:
Okay. Review the Foreign Intelligence Security Act (50 USC 1801, et seq.), and then let me know if you've changed your mind.


I haven't changed my mind. I'll remind you that we are talking about "without a court order" which is the sole reason we are talking about this at all.

Quote:
FD wrote:
Tico wrote:
Also, do you agree that the leak of this classified information to the NYT should be investigated as vigorously as the Plame leak?


No.


Why not?


Because the need to know what our government is up to weighs more than the government's need to keep this information secret. Our law acknowledges the value of whistle blowers.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 10:11 am
Ticomaya wrote:
Sorry ... here's a link to the FISA ...... LINK


Already had it and was reading it as you posted.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 10:14 am
I suppose, you'll always find the one or other domestic secret service (whatever it is called) in the one or other, spying - more or less lawfully - on own citizens.

Nverthelles, I would be glad if I lived somwhere, where such isn't allowed or only if ordered by a judge.

Gladly, I do live in such a country.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 10:19 am
BBB's thread
Here is what's been on BBB's thread so far:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=65380&highlight=

My last comment:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not only did Bush violate federal laws, he violated The 4th Amendment to the US Constitution.

Is this an impeachable offense?

What is so damning about what Bush did was that he kept his order in effect long after the 9/11 emergency when he had lots of time to comply with the law and get FISA Court approval. He didn't and continued to violate the law until he was caught red-handed in December 2005.

BBB

FISA Law

19 January 2001. FISA is the principal US law that covers electronic surveillance, physical searches and other covert activities. It is overseen by the FISA court, all of whose proceedings are held in secret. Targets of FISA activities and proceedings are denied full US Constitutional protection and privileges.

Amendment IV - Search and seizure. Ratified 12/15/1791.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 10:20 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Okay. Review the Foreign Intelligence Security Act (50 USC 1801, et seq.), and then let me know if you've changed your mind.


I haven't changed my mind. I'll remind you that we are talking about "without a court order" which is the sole reason we are talking about this at all.


Okay, don't change your mind. But I'll leave you with this quote from yesterday's NYT's article:

The New York Times wrote:
Under the agency's longstanding rules, the N.S.A. can target for interception phone calls or e-mail messages on foreign soil, even if the recipients of those communications are in the United States. Usually, though, the government can only target phones and e-mail messages in the United States by first obtaining a court order from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which holds its closed sessions at the Justice Department.


---

FD wrote:
Tico wrote:
FD wrote:
Tico wrote:
Also, do you agree that the leak of this classified information to the NYT should be investigated as vigorously as the Plame leak?


No.


Why not?


Because the need to know what our government is up to weighs more than the government's need to keep this information secret. Our law acknowledges the value of whistle blowers.


So you think certain leaks of sensitive and classified information are justified, while some are not. In this case the leak you think should be permitted hampers the US Government's efforts to track the activities of terrorists.

As Hugh Hewitt said: "When the next attack comes, one question will be how did the terrorists evade detection. Today the odds increased that one of their methods will be careful reading of the New York Times."
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 10:30 am
The Big Stall: How Bush gamed the media to get re-elected in 2004
"Nothing gave us more trouble during my years on [the paper] than the conflict with the government over what should and should not be published during periods of war or threats of war."
-- James Reston, New York Times columnist, in his autobiography, "Deadline."

Forty-four years later, the New York Times is still trying to get it right. In 1961, the Kennedy Administration talked the Times into spiking an article that would have prevented the disastrous Bay of Pigs invasion, the trigger for a series of unfortunate events that stretched to Watergate and, according to H.R. Haldeman, JFK's assassination.

Now, the Times -- again, at the request of the White House -- has held onto a national security bombshell: President Bush's unlawful authorization of domestic spying on international phone calls and emails of hundreds and possibly thousands of people inside the U.S.

The story in and of itself is a shocker, even as it comes right after the NBC report that an obscure Pentagon agency has monitored the activities of peaceful anti-war protestors. It's too early to gauge reaction, but we expect that it will be highly negative, not just from the usual suspects on the left but also from the vast political middle -- the heartland types who just barely propelled Bush to re-election in 2004.

And there lies the real story behind the story. Because it appears it may have been possible for the Times to publish at least some of the details of the Bush-ordered domestic spying before Nov. 2, 2004, the day that the president nailed down four more years. Although Bush won by 2 percent nationally, a switch of just 59,302 Ohio voters from Bush to John Kerry would would have put the Democrats back in the White House.

Would Bush won the election if the extent of his seemingly unconstitutional domestic spying had been known? We'll never know. For roughly a year, the White House successfully leaned on the Times to keep the story under wraps. It's not known when the Bush lobbying of the Times began. But it is clear that the warning signs about the program -- the alarm bells that likely triggered the Times investigation in the first place -- were going off by mid-2004, months before the vote.

Here's the money shot from today's Times article:

The White House asked The New York Times not to publish this article, arguing that it could jeopardize continuing investigations and alert would-be terrorists that they might be under scrutiny. After meeting with senior administration officials to hear their concerns, the newspaper delayed publication for a year to conduct additional reporting. Some information that administration officials argued could be useful to terrorists has been omitted.

We'd like to know a lot more about how this all transpired -- who talked to whom at the Times, and when did they talk? Did the pleading come before Nov. 2, 2004, or after? Was anyone on the White House political side -- i.e., Karl Rove --involved? You would think that after the Judy Miller fiasco, the Times would be much, much more transparent in the backstory of how this story was published. But you would think wrong.
http://www.pnionline.com/dnblog/attytood/archives/002576.html#more
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 10:35 am
Ticomaya wrote:


Okay, don't change your mind. But I'll leave you with this quote from yesterday's NYT's article:

The New York Times wrote:
Under the agency's longstanding rules, the N.S.A. can target for interception phone calls or e-mail messages on foreign soil, even if the recipients of those communications are in the United States. Usually, though, the government can only target phones and e-mail messages in the United States by first obtaining a court order from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which holds its closed sessions at the Justice Department.


That's nice but not really relevant to the point of this thread since we're not talking about foreign interceptions but interceptions of calls and emails that originated here in the US by US persons (as defined in 1801) and without a court order. That's why we're all aghast.

Tico wrote:
In this case the leak you think should be permitted hampers the US Government's efforts to track the activities of terrorists.


How so?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 10:41 am
Hopefully most Americans are of the mind that the government better be doing everything in its power to fight terrorism. That seemed to be the consensus based on the results of the 2004 election. So if the government has reason to believe it needs to monitor a particular phone call for national security reasons, it would be idiocy to have to wait to get a FISA warrant in order to monitor that particular call. The more reasonable approach is to monitor the call, and advise the FISA court that the call was monitored, and advise members of the Congressional Intelligence Committees (hopefully ones that can keep their mouths shut). The Administration should be commended for its efforts to combat terrorism, including monitoring these calls, passing the Patriot Act, and using aggressive interrogation techniques. Profiling would also help, but won't happen in a country not serious about fighting terrorism. You certainly get the sense that it will take another 9/11 to get some leftists to come around to that line of thinking ... but then again, that might be too much to expect of some.

And now that the NYT has taken away one tool in that fight, that day might come sooner than later.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 10:41 am
Bush believes the constitution is just a piece of paper and is acting accordingly. The republicans complain about activist judges that, as they see it, do not follow the dictates of the constitution and see nothing wrong with a president who literally makes confetti out of it.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 10:45 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:


Okay, don't change your mind. But I'll leave you with this quote from yesterday's NYT's article:

The New York Times wrote:
Under the agency's longstanding rules, the N.S.A. can target for interception phone calls or e-mail messages on foreign soil, even if the recipients of those communications are in the United States. Usually, though, the government can only target phones and e-mail messages in the United States by first obtaining a court order from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which holds its closed sessions at the Justice Department.


That's nice but not really relevant to the point of this thread since we're not talking about foreign interceptions but interceptions of calls and emails that originated here in the US by US persons (as defined in 1801) and without a court order. That's why we're all aghast.


Yes, I understand you are aghast. And I'm trying to figure out why you are aghast since it is perfectly legal to intercept the communication if a terrorist in Afghanistan calls a terrorist in the US, but you are aghast if the communication from a terrorist in the US to a terrorist in Afghanistan is intercepted.

FD wrote:
Tico wrote:
In this case the leak you think should be permitted hampers the US Government's efforts to track the activities of terrorists.


How so?


Because if an American citizen is talking to a terrorist in some other country, I think the government ought to be able to listen in on the conversation, and not have to wait for a FISA warrant that would not allow it to monitor the call.

Now, the terrorists know the government has dropped its procedure of NOT monitoring domestic calls, which terrorists might have been relying on to their detriment. Now they will change tactics, and this will make it more difficult to discover plots to take down the Brooklyn Bridge and other terrorist attacks.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 10:47 am
Anyone seen Bin Laden?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 10:48 am
I think this issue really points out the hollowness of the Right's position on Civil Rights.

If you don't believe anything is wrong with this, than you don't believe anyone has any right to privacy whatsoever.

You don't believe there is anything wrong with the Government spying on any citizen at any time for any reason; for that is what is occuring here. None of us were informed that this was happening or even might happen.

I don't buy for a second that anti-war activists and peace proponents should be treated like goddamn terrorists! I understand that some of you on the right don't see a difference but it does exist.

This case isn't going to go away. It isn't legal. And Bush is going to get killed politically over it. Why? Because most Americans believe that they have a right to not be spied upon by their government. And secret police, secret taps on the phones, sounds a lot like the Communist State that I and others like me were taught was the opposite of what America stood for.

I just don't get how the Righties on one hand want small government b/c you can't trust government and bueracracies to do a good job, but on the other hand want the same goverment to have unlimited spying power on Americans. It is logically inconsistent and indicates that a citizen's rights just aren't important at all to them.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 10:49 am
au1929 wrote:
Bush believes the constitution is just a piece of paper and is acting accordingly. The republicans complain about activist judges that, as they see it, do not follow the dictates of the constitution and see nothing wrong with a president who literally makes confetti out of it.


Bush has presidential powers, and the joint resolution passed by Congress on Sept. 14, 2001, authorized the president to "use all necessary and appropriate force" against those responsible for 9/11 in order to prevent future attacks. He has a duty to protect this country, and that duty exists despite the fact that there are those who would rather die in a terrorist attack than have stateside terrorists' phone calls monitored.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 10:50 am
squinney wrote:
Anyone seen Bin Laden?


Who don't you go look for him, squinney? I hear he might be in Pakistan.
0 Replies
 
 

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