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America... Spying on Americans

 
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Mar, 2006 07:36 pm
parados wrote:
mysteryman wrote:

Wanna bet?
Here is her Biography...
http://www.wic.org/bio/jreno.htm

Notice this part...
Quote:
"Janet Reno is the first woman Attorney General of the United States of America. Nominated by President Bill Clinton on February 11, 1993. She was again appointed in 1997 by President Clinton and remains Attorney General of the United States.


Now,here is some info on the Waco raid...
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/

At this site you will see that the Waco raid started on Sunday Feb 28,1993.
That is AFTER she became AG.
So,the ATF agents were acting under HER ORDERS.

No,you cant blame Bush,he was not the President in 1996.


You do realize there is a process after the nomination, don't you? She has to be approved the Senate before she can assume office. She was sworn in on March 12, 1993. The raid was on Feb 28, 1993. The Senate approved her nomination on March 11, 1993.

I guess we can blame Bush for the Cole though since he was nominated at the time that happened. Laughing


She was certainly AG when she made the decision to end the standoff.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Mar, 2006 07:37 pm
parados wrote:
mysteryman wrote:

Wanna bet?
Here is her Biography...
http://www.wic.org/bio/jreno.htm

Notice this part...
Quote:
"Janet Reno is the first woman Attorney General of the United States of America. Nominated by President Bill Clinton on February 11, 1993. She was again appointed in 1997 by President Clinton and remains Attorney General of the United States.


Now,here is some info on the Waco raid...
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/

At this site you will see that the Waco raid started on Sunday Feb 28,1993.
That is AFTER she became AG.
So,the ATF agents were acting under HER ORDERS.

No,you cant blame Bush,he was not the President in 1996.


You do realize there is a process after the nomination, don't you? She has to be approved the Senate before she can assume office. She was sworn in on March 12, 1993. The raid was on Feb 28, 1993. The Senate approved her nomination on March 11, 1993.

I guess we can blame Bush for the Cole though since he was nominated at the time that happened. Laughing


No,you cant blame Bush for the Cole.
The Cole attack happened on October 12,2000.
Bush had not yet won the election,so he was not the President elect yet,nor had he been sworn in.
Your attempt to deflect the truth is actually funny.

As for Janet Reno,there is this part,from this link...
http://www.slate.com/id/2274/

Quote:
After famously "taking responsibility" for the botched FBI raid in Waco in 1993, she was lionized for her refreshing readiness to be held accountable


Then there is this,from CNN...

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0004/10/mn.05.html

Quote:
Oh, I think definitely an up. You know, seven years ago, Attorney General Reno impressed Americans with her take-charge attitude in Waco. She made a controversial decision, one that is still controversial, and she took responsibility for it.


So,why would she take responsibility?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Mar, 2006 07:42 pm
Tico wrote:
It is your opinion they are guilty, and whether they are guilty or not has yet to be proven.

Law: (a simple summary) stipulates that any government official that performs wiretaps on Americans citizens must get FISA court approval; there are no exceptions.

Bush: Admitted he authorized wiretaps against Americans without court approval.

Conclusion: Guilty of a crime; and yes, this is my opinion. Anybody that doesn't see the crime is either ignorant or stupid.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Mar, 2006 07:49 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Tico wrote:
It is your opinion they are guilty, and whether they are guilty or not has yet to be proven.

Law: (a simple summary) stipulates that any government official that performs wiretaps on Americans citizens must get FISA court approval; there are no exceptions.

Bush: Admitted he authorized wiretaps against Americans without court approval.

Conclusion: Guilty of a crime; and yes, this is my opinion. Anybody that doesn't see the crime is either ignorant or stupid.


I know you've been participating in this thread, c.i., and I can only assume you've been paying attention. Anybody who has been paying attention to this entire thread is aware of the counter argument that's been presented in support of the President's NSA program. It is anything but clear that a crime has been committed, or that Bush is guilty of same.

Anybody that doesn't see that is either ignorant or stupid.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Mar, 2006 07:53 pm
Tico, The president is not above the law. He can't make his own interpretations of what laws on the books he can supercede.

The real problem we are having is the simple fact that congress has not acted on this issue, because they do not wish to impeach their own republican president.

They were willing to impeach Clinton for a personal sexual encounter. It's called hypocrisy.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Mar, 2006 07:56 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Tico, The president is not above the law. He can't make his own interpretations of what laws on the books he can supercede.

The real problem we are having is the simple fact that congress has not acted on this issue, because they do not wish to impeach their own republican president.

They were willing to impeach Clinton for a personal sexual encounter. It's called hypocrisy.


The real problem you are having is the Supreme Court has not ruled on this issue. Until they do, the case law appears to be against you, c.i.

Clinton was impeached because he lied under oath. It's called perjury.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Mar, 2006 08:09 pm
The Senate brings forward charges of impeachment. You don't even know the simplist legal process for impeachment.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Mar, 2006 08:11 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
The Senate brings forward charges of impeachment. You don't even know the simplist legal process for impeachment.


The House actually impeach's the President.
The Senate tries the case,and either aquits or convicts.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Mar, 2006 08:18 pm
The House is only used as a conduit for the Senate's questions.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Mar, 2006 08:19 pm
MM,
Do you realize that the ATF and the FBI aren't the same thing?

The ATF made the raid on the compound on Feb 28th. After the shootout, the FBI took charge. The FBI was in charge of the standoff when Reno became AG on March 12th. Reno accepted responsibility for the decision to end the standoff. That is NOT the same thing as being in charge when the ATF made the raid.

Reno made decisions within 5 weeks of taking office about actions that occurred before she was in office. Bush still hadn't acted on the Cole 8 months into his taking office and has steadfastly refused to take responsibility for his lack of action.:wink: Reno is more of a man than Bush will ever be. Laughing Laughing Laughing

Here is a timeline.. see March 12th...
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/timeline5.html
Quote:

FRIDAY, MARCH 12:

RENO is sworn in as Attorney General.


Your attempt to deflect the fact that Reno wasn't AG on the day that ATF raided the Koresh compound is what is funny.

On Oct 12, 2000, Bush was nominated but hadn't won a vote or been sworn in.
On Feb 28th, 1993, Reno was nominated but hadn't won a vote yet or been sworn in.
:wink:
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Mar, 2006 09:45 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
The Senate brings forward charges of impeachment. You don't even know the simplist legal process for impeachment.


What are you talking about? And I don't mean because it's the House that brings the charges of impeachment -- which is of course hilarious because of the way you accused me of not knowing "the simplist [sic] legal process for impeachment."

Until and unless the Supreme Court rules on the NSA warrantless intercepts, the case law is against you on that issue. I didn't say the Supreme Court brings impeachment charges, and I can't imagine why you would jump so hard to such a ridiculous conclusion. My reference to Clinton's impeachment was only to correct your mistaken claim that he was impeached for a "personal sexual encounter."

But on a positive note, at least you've learned that the House brings the charges, and the Senate tries the impeachment. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Mar, 2006 09:49 pm
parados wrote:
Reno is more of a man than Bush will ever be. Laughing Laughing Laughing


Can't argue with that. Laughing
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Mar, 2006 10:42 pm
parados wrote:

If we use your 'standard' can we blame Bush for not accepting Bin Laden from Sudan in 1996? :wink:


You must still be smarting over that debate, huh?

Boy did I stir up a hornets nest here by mentioning Waco and Clintons impeachment. By the way, whoever said his impeachment was dropped, it wasn't. He was impeached, but not removed from office, which required the votes in the Senate, and not one single Democrat deemed the law more important than their lousy party.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Mar, 2006 10:45 pm
Yep. Clinton was acquitted by the Senate.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Mar, 2006 10:51 pm
Unless I am repeating whats been said, my understanding is that the term "impeachment" simply indicates the president was brought up on charges by the House and so he was impeached by the House. He was not removed from office by the Senate, but Clinton's legacy is that of a president that was impeached.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Mar, 2006 10:55 pm
okie wrote:
Unless I am repeating whats been said, my understanding is that the term "impeachment" simply indicates the president was brought up on charges by the House and so he was impeached by the House. He was not removed from office by the Senate, but Clinton's legacy is that of a president that was impeached.


You're right.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Mar, 2006 11:19 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
Tico, The president is not above the law. He can't make his own interpretations of what laws on the books he can supercede.

The real problem we are having is the simple fact that congress has not acted on this issue, because they do not wish to impeach their own republican president.

They were willing to impeach Clinton for a personal sexual encounter. It's called hypocrisy.


The real problem you are having is the Supreme Court has not ruled on this issue. Until they do, the case law appears to be against you, c.i.

Clinton was impeached because he lied under oath. It's called perjury.



We have a multitude of criminal laws. It's against the law to commit murder. If the president commits murder, we don't need the Supreme Court to rule on whether the president's conduct is permissible or impermissible. The president is not above the law.

Congress made it a crime for government actors to conduct electronic surveillance of United States persons without court approval. Bush has made it clear that he knows that the law requires him to obtain court approval. He said so himself on April 20, 2004:

Quote:
Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so. It's important for our fellow citizens to understand, when you think Patriot Act, constitutional guarantees are in place when it comes to doing what is necessary to protect our homeland, because we value the Constitution.


http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040420-2.html


Clinton was investigated. Clinton was charged with offenses. He was tried by the Senate and he was acquitted. Clinton barely escaped removal from office.

Inasmuch as Gonzales and the Justice Department have a conflict of interest, a special prosecutor must be appointed to bring charges against Bush, Cheney, and their cohorts.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Mar, 2006 05:59 am
mysteryman wrote:
Yes,we are running a deficit,but can you name the last President that didnt run a deficit?
Dont say Clinton,because there was a deficit during all of his admin also.

I do say Clinton, because the federal budget ran a surplus from 1998 to 2001. (Source: Congressional Budget Office: Historical Budget Data (PDF).) Note that Congress passed the 2001 budget during Clinton's presidency, even though Bush presided over most of its implementation. I don't see how this is relevant to the NSA's illegal warrantless spying on Americans, and Bush's illegal authorization of it. But since you braught it up and it's easily refuteable, MM, I might as well refute it. (PS: I did note the linguistic trickery in your choice of words. "[T]here was a deficit during all of his admin also." This suggests that the budget was never in surplus, but allows for weasel room because "all of his admin" can be interpreted as referring to the whole period of 1993-2001.)
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Mar, 2006 07:52 am
okie wrote:
parados wrote:

If we use your 'standard' can we blame Bush for not accepting Bin Laden from Sudan in 1996? :wink:


You must still be smarting over that debate, huh?
You mean it sounds reasonable to say Bush should be blamed for something that never happened? Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing (sarcasm okie, you need to learn what it is. I mixed your standard in with MMs. :wink: )

Quote:
Boy did I stir up a hornets nest here by mentioning Waco and Clintons impeachment.
You trotted out a lot of non facts that are being shown to be non facts.
Quote:
By the way, whoever said his impeachment was dropped, it wasn't. He was impeached, but not removed from office,
He was found NOT GUILTY
Quote:
which required the votes in the Senate, and not one single Democrat deemed the law more important than their lousy party.


An interesting take on the outcome okie... So if an entire party votes one direction and the other party splits does that always equate to the party that votes completely together is putting their party ahead of the law? That is the only objective standard I see in your statement. Come up with a different one if you can.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Mar, 2006 09:46 am
parados wrote:
An interesting take on the outcome okie... So if an entire party votes one direction and the other party splits does that always equate to the party that votes completely together is putting their party ahead of the law? That is the only objective standard I see in your statement. Come up with a different one if you can.


I see more lockstep and group think among Democrats, with the exception of an occasional Zell Miller. In general, Republicans tend to act and vote more as individuals, not entirely of course, but moreso than the Democrats. Of course, this makes sense because the Democratic Party is a party of groupies, such as unions, etc., whereas the Republican Party is a party that believes in individual rights and responsibilities. Even campaign contributions reflect this.

Increasingly, the morality of the Democratic Party can be likened to the old frontier philosophy of "good and bad" as opposed to "good and evil." Its good to steal a horse from somebody else's tribe, but bad, very bad, to steal a horse, even a trinket from your own tribe. The act of stealing may be good or it may be bad, the act itself cannot be judged, it is who you do it to. Same philosophy now. Corruption was not an issue a few years ago. Now, its a huge issue. Strange how that works isn't it Parados?

More okie observations from personal observation of politics over the last 50 years. Of course none of this is valid, right?

The point of all this is the obvious point that if Clinton were in office now doing the very same thing with "wiretapping" terrorist connections, the political firestorm, if any, would display itself in a totally different fashion. First of all, I do not think it would be a controversy, in fact, we might not have even heard about it because it might not have been leaked in the first place. The same partisanship is reflected in the fact that a Democrat icon, as FDR, is never condemned in the same fashion than if it had been Richard Nixon that had rounded up the thousands and thousands of Japanese Americans and placed them in concentration camps. Nixon would now be compared to Joseph Stalin or Adolph Hitler in the history books. I think everybody here knows this, but perhaps not all would admit it.
0 Replies
 
 

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