9
   

America... Spying on Americans

 
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Feb, 2006 11:28 am
<--- note to self ----->

<--Tico can't take a joke when his Freudian slips are pointed out.-->

I thought your "rationale thought" was quite funny and quite apropos for the rationalization used to claim we couldn't comment on secret wiretapping without being experts.

Think about it.

What is the difference between rational thought and rationale thought?

Even you have to see humor in it Tico. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Feb, 2006 11:35 am
parados wrote:
What is the difference between rational thought and rationale thought?


One is a thought based on sound reasoning, while the other is a thought forming the basis of one's reasoning?

Quote:
Even you have to see humor in it Tico. :wink:


Hmm ... well, maybe we have different definitions of "humor"? :wink:
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Feb, 2006 01:47 pm
Whistleblower Says NSA Violations Bigger
Whistleblower Says NSA Violations Bigger
UPI
Tuesday 14 February 2006

Washington - A former NSA employee said Tuesday there is another ongoing top-secret surveillance program that might have violated millions of Americans' Constitutional rights.

Russell D. Tice told the House Government Reform Subcommittee on National Security, Emerging Threats and International Relations he has concerns about a "special access" electronic surveillance program that he characterized as far more wide-ranging than the warrentless wiretapping recently exposed by the New York Times but he is forbidden from discussing the program with Congress.

Tice said he believes it violates the Constitution's protection against unlawful search and seizures but has no way of sharing the information without breaking classification laws. He is not even allowed to tell the congressional intelligence committees - members or their staff - because they lack high enough clearance.

Neither could he brief the inspector general of the NSA because that office is not cleared to hear the information, he said.

Subcommittee Chairman Rep. Christopher Shays, R-Conn., and Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohio, said they believe a few members of the Armed Services Committee are cleared for the information, but they said believe their committee and the intelligence committees have jurisdiction to hear the allegations.

"Congressman Kucinich wants Congressman Shays to hold a hearing (on the program)," said Doug Gordon, Kucinich's spokesman. "Obviously it would have to take place in some kind of a closed hearing. But Congress has a role to play in oversight. The (Bush) administration does not get to decide what Congress can and can not hear."

Tice was testifying because he was a National Security Agency intelligence officer who was stripped of his security clearance after he reported his suspicions that a former colleague at the Defense Intelligence Agency was a spy. The matter was dismissed by the DIA, but Tice pressed it later and was subsequently ordered to take a psychological examination, during which he was declared paranoid. He is now unemployed.

Tice was one of the New York Times sources for its wiretapping story, but he told the committee the information he provided was not secret and could have been provided by an private sector electronic communications professional.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Feb, 2006 01:49 pm
Gotcha scooped on that last one, BBB -

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1863617#1863617

Page 217, lol

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Feb, 2006 01:50 pm
Cy
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Gotcha scooped on that last one, BBB -

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1863617#1863617

Page 217, lol

Cycloptichorn


Evil or Very Mad
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Feb, 2006 02:28 pm
Quote:
Updated: 2:53 p.m. ET Feb. 16, 2006

WASHINGTON - A federal judge Thursday ordered the Justice Department to respond within 20 days to requests by a civil liberties group for documents about President Bush's domestic eavesdropping program.

The ruling was a victory for the Electronic Privacy Information Center, which sued the department under the Freedom of Information Act in seeking the release of the documents.
U.S. District Judge Henry Kennedy ruled that the department must finish processing the group's requests and produce or identify all records within 20 days.

"Given the great public and media attention that the government's warrantless surveillance program has garnered and the recent hearings before the Senate Judiciary Committee, the public interest is particularly well served by the timely release of the requested documents," he said.
Story continues below ↓ advertisement

Kennedy also ordered the department to give the group a document index and declaration stating its justification for withholding any documents within 30 days.

The Washington-based center sought the documents from four Justice Department offices, including the office of the attorney general, after the New York Times first reported the eavesdropping program's existence on Dec. 16.

Key role in NSA program
It argued that the department played a key role in authorizing, implementing and overseeing the program, which involves surveillance by the National Security Agency.

Records sought by the group include an audit of the program, a "checklist" guide used to determine whether an individual's phone or e-mail messages could be monitored, documents showing how information gleaned through eavesdropping had been used, and other legal opinions about the program.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/11389667/

I guess we can only wait and see if the administration is going to comply or not.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Feb, 2006 03:11 pm
I am betting, not; citing "security."
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Feb, 2006 03:25 pm
I think they can redact for security reasons but they can't refuse to give the documents.

There are going to be a lot of pages that are completely black is my guess.

The court will be asking to see them unredacted to find out if the information is really secret or not.
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Feb, 2006 06:01 pm
parados wrote:
I think they can redact for security reasons but they can't refuse to give the documents.

There are going to be a lot of pages that are completely black is my guess.

The court will be asking to see them unredacted to find out if the information is really secret or not.


Just use a spray painter :wink:
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Feb, 2006 04:16 pm
Glen Greenwald is really knocking 'em dead these days.

Here's his take on the NSA spying issue today:

Quote:

Friday, February 17, 2006
The Long Hard Slog

There are lots of people who appear to be morbidly depressed -- to the point of conceding defeat -- as a result of yesterday's Unilateral Obstruction by the incomparable White House shill Sen. Pat Roberts of the long-planned and long-promised investigation into the operational aspects of the NSA program by the Senate Intelligence Committee. That defeatist reaction and the borderline-self-pitying sentiments which accompany it are, for literally countless reasons, completely unwarranted.

First, nobody ever thought that a just resolution of this scandal was dependent upon an investigation by the Senate Intelligence Committee, dominated, as it is, by the mewling, slavish and indescribably dishonest Pat Roberts. The notion that this scandal has come to an end all because Roberts blocked, for the moment, hearings that were to be held by that Committee is nonsensical. Thankfully, this scandal never depended upon the integrity of Pat Roberts, and hearings in front of that Committee were merely one of the many ways to compel a real investigation, but it was hardly the only or even primary way.

Moreover, the Committee did not vote against an investigation. Instead, Roberts merely invoked a procedural device as Chairman to prevent a vote, for now, from taking place. (Incidentally, what happened to the Republican mantra that procedural maneuvers ought not be used to block up-or-down votes? It seems that principle only applies to matters where they know they will prevail on the vote. Here, there were clearly Republican members of the Committee who did not want to go on record - and who may have been unwilling to go on record - voting to oppose an investigation. As a result, no vote was held).

And, one must remember that there are numerous other branches of this scandal which are alive, well, and growing. The investigation of the Senate Judiciary Committee continues, with disputes raging between the Republican Chairman and the Attorney General over the scope of further witnesses testimony and the DoJ's obligation to disclose documents. The House Intelligence Committee voted yesterday to launch its own investigation and hold its own hearings, and Republicans on that Committee are already feuding with one another over the proper scope of that investigation. And, as I wrote about yesterday, the judiciary is now involved in this scandal and is beginning to assert its institutional role in our democracy.

In sum, there are numerous governmental processes underway far beyond the Senate Intelligence Committee which are engaged in serious and potentially fatal investigations of this scandal. And beyond those, what will ultimately determine whether the Bush Administration is held accountable for its law-breaking are two components which neither Dick Cheney nor Pat Roberts can shut down - the investigative work of the press and the opinion of the public.

Some perspective is necessary and critically important here. The NSA scandal has only existed for two months. It arose in an environment where the President's party controls not only the Executive Branch, but has transformed Congress into a compliant, obedient, impotent tool of the Administration. The Administration has successfully manipulated terrorism fears for quite some time, and the Administration beings with a rhetorical advantage with any measures that ostensibly involve counter-terrorism efforts. And large parts of the media are captive to the Bush world-view and resistant to the premise that the Administration may have been corrupt or acted illegally.

Thus, this scandal was never going to be the downfall of the Administration after a few weeks, and anyone who expected this was operating with wildly unrealistic expectations. It is going to take hard, focused, patient work to bring about a just resolution to this scandal. It is an uphill battle that will have to overcome substantial and formidable efforts on the part of the Administration to block investigations and they will do everything in their considerable power to ensure that they will be immunized from consequences. All of that has to be expected. None of it should come as a surprise.

There is nothing surprising - and nothing even remotely fatal - about the fact that someone like Pat Roberts engaged in slimy maneuvering in order to comply with Dick Cheney's decree that there be no investigation by that Committee into this scandal. If that little stunt is enough to make people say that the whole thing is over and the Administration won, then it means that we weren't prepared to fight very hard over this matter.

The reality is that the more the Administration fights to suppress investigations and conceal relevant facts, the more fuel is added to this fire. Every presidential scandal in history has been exacerbated by the cover-up component. Opponents of the Clinton Administration had some of their most compelling political P.R. victories when the Administration invoked precepts of "Executive privilege" in order to block interrogation and to avoid the disclosure of documents.

Rather than viewing each obstructionist step by the Administration as some sign of our inevitable defeat and doom, we ought to see it and use it as what it is -- a sign that, contrary to their bravado, the Administration is petrified of this scandal and is doing everything possible to prevent Americans -- through their Congress and the courts -- from discovering the truth.

During the Watergate scandal, the Nixon Administration engaged in all sorts of subterfuge designed to derail the Watergate investigation. The notorious Saturday Night Massacre occurred when the President ordered his Attorney General, Elliot Richardson, to fire the Special Prosecutor investigating the Watergate scandal (Archibald Cox), and when both Richardson and his Deputy refused to fire Cox, Nixon fired them and then found someone next in line at the Justice Department (Robert Bork) who was willing to fire Cox, which Bork then did.

When that happened, Americans who stood opposed to Nixon's law-breaking didn't throw up their hands and moan that the Watergate investigation was over and concede defeat to the President. If anything, those obstructionist efforts fueled the scandal even more and emboldened Nixon's opponents to create other ways to ensure that he and his Administration were held accountable for their law-breaking. In fact, public opinion was so inflamed by that obstruction that it was shortly thereafter that articles of impeachment were introduced for the first time.

The Watergate scandal took 2 1/2 years from the time it began until the time Nixon left office because of it in disgrace. The NSA scandal has been with us for 2 months. Watergate resulted in Nixon's downfall not due to one large smoking gun revelation, nor was it because the country heard about the break-in and then stormed the streets demanding Nixon's impeachment.

Nixon began that scandal as an immensely popular President - infinitely more popular than the unpopular Bush is now. And when the Watergate scandal began, the mere notion that it could lead to Nixon's downfall was fantasy. And the scandal unfolded as a slow, grinding process which was the result of tenacious, relentless investigative work and a slow transformation of public opinion. And the Administration fought the investigation every step of the way, doing what they could to obstruct it at every turn.

It is highly instructive to recall the evolution of public opinion with regard to this Mother of all Presidential Law-breaking Scandals:


Quote:
t is worth remembering that Watergate, as a case against a presidency, was not built in a day, and the decision of most Americans to abandon their support of Nixon was not made overnight.

Shafts of light fell on Nixon's dark side in June 1972, when burglars were caught bugging the Democratic National Committee headquarters in the Watergate hotel-office complex. The few newspeople who went after the story began piecing it together that summer and fall: the program of dirty tricks and the illegal cash financing, the efforts to silence potential witnesses and shield the president.

While the revelations accumulated, the rest of the country tuned out. That November, Nixon carried 49 states in winning re-election. More than two months later, as the first Watergate defendants were going to court in January 1973, Nixon's numbers in the Gallup Poll were among the most robust of his presidency: 68 percent approval to 25 percent disapproval. . . .

Of course, that was before Nixon began talking about invoking executive privilege to prevent White House aides from testifying about an alleged cover-up. When that key phrase, "executive privilege," became part of the discussion, Nixon's numbers started their descent.

In February, the Senate voted 70-0 to empanel an investigating committee of its own. Nixon's approval rating in the first week of April stood at 54 percent in the Gallup Poll. Most Americans were still withholding judgment. Even after the April 30 speech in which Nixon announced the resignation of his closest aides, many Republicans continued to rally around the president.

The Senate Republican leader, Hugh C. Scott of Pennsylvania, said the speech had proved that the president was "determined to see this affair thoroughly cleaned up." The governor of California, Ronald Reagan, said the Watergate bugging had been illegal but that "criminal" was too harsh a term because the convicted burglars were "not criminals at heart."

That same month, Republican state party chairmen meeting in Chicago adopted a resolution blaming "a few overzealous individuals" for Watergate and lending unequivocal support to the president.Vice President Spiro T. Agnew accused the press of using "hearsay" and other tactics that were "a very short jump from McCarthyism." The same comparison was picked up by the man who had succeeded McCarthy in the Senate, Democrat William Proxmire of Wisconsin, who said the media had been "grossly unfair" to Nixon.

By then, however, the bleeding in the Gallup Poll had dropped Nixon to just 48 percent approval in the first week of May -- a drop of 20 percentage points since January. And that rating would keep on falling through the 25 percent level before Nixon's resignation in August 1974.


The Bush Administration isn't going to just roll over at the first whiff of a scandal. But enormous strides have been made in public opinion. And there are already multiple Congressional investigations, lawsuits, raging and growing disputes within the President's own party, and at least some important journalists who have shown a rare journalistic hunger over this story.

And most important of all, there has been no real campaign to convince Americans of what is truly at stake with this scandal. Most Democrats can barely get themselves to utter the fact that the President broke the law, and yet half of all Americans have already reached that conclusion on their own.

There is enormous potential for this scandal to grow, but that will only happen if people who believe that Presidential law-breaking is a serious threat remain resolute about making it grow and believe that they can contribute to its growth. Dick Cheney lobbied so hard to prevent the Intelligence Committee from investigating precisely because they want to create the appearance that this scandal is dying. That will happen only if people allow it to die, only if Bush opponents internalize the notion that they will inevitably lose because everything is against them and there is no way to change that.


Greenwald is spot on; this is really going to be a long, hard process for the administration over the next year.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 02:36 am
Read the Court order with respect to the FOIA request for documents relating to the president's warrantless surveillance program:

http://www.epic.org/privacy/nsa/pi_order.pdf

Excerpt:

Quote:
. . . As the Supreme Court has made clear, public awareness of the government’s actions is “a
structural necessity in a real democracy.” Nat'l Archives & Records Admin. v. Favish, 541 U.S.
157, 172 (2004). Not only is public awareness a necessity, but so too is timely public awareness.
For this reason, Congress recognized that delay in complying with FOIA requests is “tantamount
to denial.” H.R. Rep. No. 93-876, at 6 (1974).

. . . President Bush has invited meaningful debate about the warrantless surveillance
program. David E. Sanger, In Shift, Bush Says He Welcomes Inquiry on Secret Wiretaps, N.Y.
TIMES, Jan. 12, 2006. That can only occur if DOJ processes its FOIA requests in a timely fashion
and releases the information sought.9

DOJ argues that “ased upon the information that the government has already made 9
public . . . plaintiff is fully able to participate in the current public debate.” Def.’s Opp’n at 18.
This argument is quickly rejected, for as EPIC correctly argues, “a meaningful and truly
democratic debate on the legality and propriety of the warrantless surveillance program cannot be
based solely upon information that the Administration voluntarily chooses to disseminate.” Pl.’s Reply at 8 (quotation omitted).
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 02:39 am
Adam Winkler: Why the NSA's Domestic Spying Program is Illegal

The uproar on Capitol Hill over President Bush's secret program to use the National Security Administration to spy on American citizens without a warrant continues to grow. But the NSA program - and the President's defense of it - are much more worrisome than many in Washington realize.

Under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), the President is prohibited from domestic spying on U.S. citizens without a warrant. To ease the President's ability to obtain such warrants, however, the FISA establishes a special court with streamlined procedures and relatively lenient standards. Yet the President chose simply to ignore the requirements of FISA.

The administration makes two arguments to support the spying program. The first is specious. The second is nothing less than a threat to the rule of law.

The first argument is that Congress "implicitly authorized" Bush to spy on citizens by the Authorization for the Use of Military Force (AUMF), the law passed right after 9/11 to authorize military action against Al Qaeda.

Of course, the text of the AUMF says absolutely nothing about domestic surveillance. FISA, by contrast, comprehensively regulates wiretapping for intelligence purposes, including detailed provisions on domestic surveillance during times of war.

Under standard principles of statutory interpretation, a general law is not read to replace an earlier, more specific law in the absence of some evidence that Congress intended to change the law. But nothing in the AUMF's text or legislative history indicates a congressional intent to override the detailed, carefully constructed FISA procedures.

In fact, during deliberations on the AUMF, Congress explicitly rejected an administration proposal to include a grant of authority to the President to exercise domestic war-making powers. Now Bush claims the statute empowers him in precisely the way Congress refused.

"Implicitly authorized" apparently should be taken to mean "lacking any basis in law."

In recognition of the weakness of the first argument, the administration offers another. This one, too, lacks legal foundation. More troubling still is that, if accepted, the President's argument would undermine the foundations of our system of checks and balances.

The administration says that the president does not need authority from Congress because the he has "inherent power" under the Constitution as Commander-in-Chief to take any action necessary, at home or abroad, to preserve national security.

"Inherent" powers? "Implicit" authorization? It makes one long for the good old days when President Bush pledged his allegiance to a philosophy of "strict" construction.

President Truman made the same "inherent powers" argument in the Supreme Court to defend of his seizure of U.S. steel mills during the Korean War. Under federal law, the executive could seize property under certain circumstances, but Truman elected to take over the mills without following the statutory procedures. As Commander-in-Chief, he claimed to have the implicit power to seize private property if necessary to support the war effort, without following contrary legislation that was in his view too burdensome.

In a landmark decision, Youngstown Sheet & Tube v. Sawyer, the Supreme Court rejected Truman's argument and held the seizure of the steel mills was unconstitutional.

Out of the Youngstown case came what has become the settled method of determining the boundaries of executive power under the Constitution. Under this framework, executive power is at its strongest when the president acts with the consent of Congress. When Congress and the executive are aligned, the President acts with the combined authority of both branches.

Conversely, the President's power is at its "lowest ebb" when the President acts contrary to the will of Congress. Then the President can only act if the Constitution grants him, and him alone, authority to govern in the relevant area.

In the steel seizure case, the president did not have "exclusive" authority to take private property or regulate industrial relations. Congress' authority in this area was well established, as evidenced by the seizure laws Truman ignored.

Nor does the Constitution vest President Bush with "exclusive" authority over domestic surveillance. Congress has a long-recognized role in regulating domestic searches and seizures, including surveillance in time of war. The FISA itself is a reflection of that authority, and that law specifically criminalizes electronic spying without a warrant.

And there's the rub. Under the "inherent powers" argument, the President's power is so broad that he can even violate the criminal laws. And he can do so covertly and without submitting to oversight by the other branches of government. But if the President can secretly ignore FISA -- which was enacted explicitly to limit surveillance by the executive branch -- what laws still bind him?

Logically, the President's inherent powers would allow him to violate any law so long as some tie to national security can be asserted.

Indeed, the President has already made clear that he believes the scope of his inherent powers permit him to violate other laws than FISA. When he signed the recently enacted McCain Amendment forbidding the torture of detainees, for example, Bush declared that his "inherent authority" as Commander-in-Chief still permitted him to employ torture at his discretion.

Quite literally, President Bush claims to be above the law. Americans inclined to trust President Bush should realize, however, that the precedent set here will empower future presidents. Do we really want all future presidents to have the power to disobey basic criminal laws?

President Bush's NSA program is illegal and needs to be stopped. Even more importantly, Congress must take a strong stand against Bush's dangerous reading of the Constitution.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 12:13 pm
http://newsblaze.com/story/20060217114414nnnn.nb/newsblaze/TOPSTORY/Top-Story.html

Quote:
Republican Sues Bush, Cheney, NSA, TSA for Illegal Surveillance, Wiretapping

By Alan Gray, NewsBlaze

Scott Tooley, a Republican, and former Congressional aide and law school graduate, educated at renowned Christian universities, has filed suit against the President, Vice President and relevant federal agencies for their illegal surveillance programs.

According to the complaint, the Bush-Cheney Administration initiated numerous illegal and perpetual surveillance methods on Mr. Tooley and his family after he was incorrectly placed on the TSA's "selectee" or watch list.

Mr. Tooley's case is unique because the suit alleges the Bush Administration has used additional illegal surveillance methods on him in addition to the illegal wiretapping. Mr. Tooley is also the first Republican to file suit with regard to the Bush Administration's surveillance programs.


Interesting.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 12:36 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
http://newsblaze.com/story/20060217114414nnnn.nb/newsblaze/TOPSTORY/Top-Story.html

Quote:
Republican Sues Bush, Cheney, NSA, TSA for Illegal Surveillance, Wiretapping

By Alan Gray, NewsBlaze

Scott Tooley, a Republican, and former Congressional aide and law school graduate, educated at renowned Christian universities, has filed suit against the President, Vice President and relevant federal agencies for their illegal surveillance programs.

According to the complaint, the Bush-Cheney Administration initiated numerous illegal and perpetual surveillance methods on Mr. Tooley and his family after he was incorrectly placed on the TSA's "selectee" or watch list.

Mr. Tooley's case is unique because the suit alleges the Bush Administration has used additional illegal surveillance methods on him in addition to the illegal wiretapping. Mr. Tooley is also the first Republican to file suit with regard to the Bush Administration's surveillance programs.


Interesting.

Cycloptichorn


Oh my, you mean they actually spied on a citizen with no ties to Al Queda. That just can't happen ...

Anon
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 03:45 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
http://newsblaze.com/story/20060217114414nnnn.nb/newsblaze/TOPSTORY/Top-Story.html
Quote:
... educated at renowned Christian universities,


"... educated at renowned Christian universities"?
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 04:57 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
http://newsblaze.com/story/20060217114414nnnn.nb/newsblaze/TOPSTORY/Top-Story.html

Quote:
Republican Sues Bush, Cheney, NSA, TSA for Illegal Surveillance, Wiretapping

By Alan Gray, NewsBlaze

Scott Tooley, a Republican, and former Congressional aide and law school graduate, educated at renowned Christian universities, has filed suit against the President, Vice President and relevant federal agencies for their illegal surveillance programs.

According to the complaint, the Bush-Cheney Administration initiated numerous illegal and perpetual surveillance methods on Mr. Tooley and his family after he was incorrectly placed on the TSA's "selectee" or watch list.

Mr. Tooley's case is unique because the suit alleges the Bush Administration has used additional illegal surveillance methods on him in addition to the illegal wiretapping. Mr. Tooley is also the first Republican to file suit with regard to the Bush Administration's surveillance programs.


Interesting.

Cycloptichorn


Very interesting.
Now,
What PROOF does he have he was spied upon?
Can he PROVE he was spied upon?

Remember,since he is sueing,he has to PROVE his case.
Any bets on how successful he is?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 10:22 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Very interesting.
Now,
What PROOF does he have he was spied upon?
Can he PROVE he was spied upon?

Remember,since he is sueing,he has to PROVE his case.
Any bets on how successful he is?


He need not prove his case ... after all, he was educated at renowned Christian universities.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 10:25 pm
Which probably explains the paranoia.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 10:45 pm
Just checking in here, over 200 pages now. If I'm an indicator of how many people feel, this issue is a non-starter. So Democrats are afraid Bush is tapping into communications relative to terrorist cells and figures. Thats big news. Doing this in the manner it needs to be done with computers, filtering, etc, a court order in every single lousy case is impractical. So the president exercises his authority in time of war against terrorists, many of which are here in this country. I'm all for it.

I was talking with my Dad, who is a WWII vet in the Pacific. Letters were understood to be opened on a rather random, regular basis between soldiers and back home. I am a Vietnam vet, and I think it may have been done then. I have no proof and haven't studied it, but I know at least one package never arrived home. I think I remember evidence of letters opened. We know of all the other examples throughout history during wartime. And face it, this is a war with terrorists.

I think this is going nowhere. Thankfully. Quit wasting your time liberals. People actually want terrorists caught, contrary to what you apparently want. Perhaps revise the laws to fit the need to do what is being done if that makes you feel better.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 01:27 am
okie wrote:
Just checking in here, over 200 pages now. If I'm an indicator of how many people feel, this issue is a non-starter.


You just contradicted yourself. If the topic of this thread was a non-starter, the topic would died out on page 1 before it even got started. Yet, we're over 200 pages now. Considering all the action on the topic, it's not going to die. People are going to keep talking, reporting, and digging until the entire truth about Bush's unlawful surveillance program is uncovered.


okie wrote:
So Democrats are afraid Bush is tapping into communications relative to terrorist cells and figures.



You haven't been paying attention, have you? You just plan on checking in every 200 pages or so to tell people this issue is a non-starter without going to any effort to see what we're talking about?

Feel free to chime in again with your ignorant statements when we get to page 400 or so.
0 Replies
 
 

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