9
   

America... Spying on Americans

 
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 10:06 am
woiyo wrote:
Our tactics are on full display which is my real concern. Apparently, our tacits being on display is not a concern to the legislature since they are the mouths roaring in the media.

Look who's whining now. Actually, `your' spying tactics have been on display for years, as terrorists are not the only ones who dislike being spied upon. The European Union did not like it either, and in 2000, it has published a series of detailed studies on NSA projects like Echelon.

Telepolis, a leading German computer magazine, has a very good technical summary of the Echelon project (in English even), with links to the rather longish EU studies it summarizes. (Note that some of the links no longer work because the European Union's website "has been redesigned". Evidently the new design had no place for the EU studies on America's spying efforts. You can route around the EU's unfortunate oversight via the web archive at www.archive.org .)

While the nature of Bush's spying program is unknowable for a private citizen, we can make educated guesses based on the information publicized by the EU. Echelon and friends are capable of recording millions of phonecalls a day, convert the speach into text, filter the text for certain keywords, and forward the conversation to a human if their text matches certain patterns that the filter looks for. I believe that the Bush administration has assigned Echelon and similar projects to the task of looking selectively for phone calls between terrorists. And I believe this for the following reasons.

1) This approach gives the US a fighting chance to intercept the planners of every major terrorist attack.

2) Any more narrowly tailored approach would probably not give the US this chance, because terrorists can change their phones between conversations, use different names, and employ similar tactics of evasion. Content-based filtering, by contrast, can frustrate these tactics, assuming that the terrorists don't use code words for their communications. (I presume that every terrorist worth intercepting is doing this by now, but there are people I respect who disagree with me on this.)

3) My theory (that the US is using Echelon to filter out conversations with terrorists) explains why the administration is so hostile to any public discussion of the project.

a) Echelon is a multinational project, and if its workings were exposed in a US lawsuit, it may make the other participants reluctant to cooperate with the US. (I might welcome this development as a citizen, but it's embarrasing for the government.)

b) While I am not an expert on the FISA court, I doubt it would issue such broad-based warrants if the president asked for them. (Correct, Debra?)

c) The way Echelon works, a computer can indiscriminately screen thousands of messages before it forwards one suspicious text to a person of flesh and blood. Thus, even if Congress changed FISA to allow warrantless spying on US persons through Echelon, that would create more constitutional questions than it answers: (Though I'm no expert on the US constitution either. I just like to play one on A2K.)
    I. Is it a fourth amendment search when only a computer reads or listenes to a message, but no human ever looks at it? If yes (Debra?), the program dies here, if not, that raises the next question. II. If a message matches the search pattern of a software filter, is that "probable cause" for a search -- meaning, for a human to look at the message? How does that depend on the pattern being searched for? (Debra?)

It may take years before Congress and the courts sort out messages like this, and the Bush administration is rightfully famous for the shortcuts it takes with the law. So this would explain why they are doing everything to keep it secret.

So, woiyo, while the Bush administration is trying hard to blow smoke about the issue, publically available sources have always been telling us a lot about US spying program. It stands to reason that they would adapt those programs to catch terrorists. Certainly the precise nature of the adaption is unknowable to us mortals. But given what we do know, it seems implausible that to discuss the constitutionality of the domestic spying program, the administration would have to tell us anything about the program that public sources haven't been telling us for a long time. It seems much more plausible that they are trying to spare themselves the inconvenience of having their program slowed down by the courts.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 10:10 am
PS: Several ideas from an article in David Friedman's blog crept into my last post as I was writing it. I don't want to plagiarize, so I'd better cite it:

The Fisa Puzzle
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 10:20 am
Quote:
It seems much more plausible that they are trying to spare themselves the inconvenience of having their program slowed down by the courts.


The other reason they could be stalling info? Because they are pursuing other, less noble, purposes with the spying program that they don't intend for anyone to find out about.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 10:23 am
I'm not sure if I'd go that far, but I share Thomas's suspicion that they are using Echelon domestically. If that's true, it will be a major problem for the conservative base who mostly went into convulsions when the program was revealed. The only thing that shut Americans up about the program was the promise that it could not be used domestically. That would be reason enough for them to be wary of disclosing their actions.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 10:52 am
I agree. I just don't think this issue is a winner with Libertarians and classical conservatives.

And I don't think the tactic of painting those who don't want to be spied upon by the Gov't as 'weak on defense' is going to work either. It seems to me that those who feel we have to have secret laws are the ones who are weak on defense.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 11:29 am
But it can be used domestically .... if the five countries that make up 'ukusa' request intercept results mined from the domestic traffic within the usa borders what you have is a 'data flea market' with bargains galore ..... and the requirements of fisa satisfied
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Feb, 2006 11:28 pm
Thomas wrote:
woiyo wrote:
Our tactics are on full display which is my real concern. Apparently, our tacits being on display is not a concern to the legislature since they are the mouths roaring in the media.


Look who's whining now.



What tactics? "Secret" government wiretapping of the enemy or "secret" government wiretapping of our own citizens? How has the revelation of the president's secret domestic spying program harmed us? Why is woiyo so concerned about our country engaging in this very important discussion concerning the fundamental constitutional values of our country?
Well, let's look at the testimony from the senate judiciary committee hearing that took place on February 6, 2006, and see what the Attorney General said about the damage this public discussion is doing to our war on terrorism:

Quote:
SESSIONS: . . . We were conducting a highly classified important operation that had the ability to prevent other people from being killed, as Ms. Burlingame's brother was killed, and several thousand others, on 9/11.

I believe that CIA Director Porter Goss recently in his statement that the revealing of this program resulted in severe damage to our intelligence capabilities is important to note.

And I would just like to follow up on Senator Cornyn's questions, General Gonzales, and ask you to assure us that you will investigate this matter and, if people are found to have violated a law, that the Department of Justice will prosecute those cases when they revealed this highly secret, highly important program?

GONZALES: Of course, we are going to investigate it. And we will make the appropriate decisions regarding a subsequent prosecution.

SESSIONS: Will you prosecute if it's appropriate?

GONZALES: We will prosecute if it's appropriate, yes sir.

SESSIONS: Thank you.

SPECTER: Thank you, Senator Sessions.

Senator Biden?

BIDEN: Thank you very much.

General, how has this revelation damaged the program?

I'm almost confused by it but, I mean, it seems to presuppose that these very sophisticated Al Qaida folks didn't think we were intercepting their phone calls.

I mean, I'm a little confused. How did it damage this?


GONZALES: Well, Senator, I would first refer to the experts in the Intel Committee who are making that statement, first of all. I'm just the lawyer.

And so, when the director of the CIA says this should really damage our intel capabilities, I would defer to that statement. I think, based on my experience, it is true -- you would assume that the enemy is presuming that we are engaged in some kind of surveillance.

But if they're not reminded about it all the time in the newspapers and in stories, they sometimes forget.

(LAUGHTER)

And you're amazed at some of the communications that exist. And so when you keep sticking it in their face that we're involved in some kind of surveillance, even if it's unclear in these stories, it can't help but make a difference, I think.

BIDEN: Well, I hope you and my distinguished friend from Alabama are right, that they're that stupid and naive because we're much better off if that's the case. . . . I mean, I hope they're that stupid.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Feb, 2006 12:32 am
Thomas wrote:
3) My theory (that the US is using Echelon to filter out conversations with terrorists) explains why the administration is so hostile to any public discussion of the project.

a) Echelon is a multinational project, and if its workings were exposed in a US lawsuit, it may make the other participants reluctant to cooperate with the US. (I might welcome this development as a citizen, but it's embarrasing for the government.)

b) While I am not an expert on the FISA court, I doubt it would issue such broad-based warrants if the president asked for them. (Correct, Debra?)


Our forefathers fought the revolutionary war in large part because they abhorred the tyranny and oppression of general search warrants.

In Katz, the Supreme Court ruled that electronic surveillance of communications is a SEARCH subject to limitations placed on the government by the Fourth Amendment. Individualized suspicion based on probable cause is required before a warrant may be issued.


Thomas wrote:
c) The way Echelon works, a computer can indiscriminately screen thousands of messages before it forwards one suspicious text to a person of flesh and blood. Thus, even if Congress changed FISA to allow warrantless spying on US persons through Echelon, that would create more constitutional questions than it answers: (Though I'm no expert on the US constitution either. I just like to play one on A2K.)
    I. Is it a fourth amendment search when only a computer reads or listenes to a message, but no human ever looks at it? If yes (Debra?), the program dies here, if not, that raises the next question. II. If a message matches the search pattern of a software filter, is that "probable cause" for a search -- meaning, for a human to look at the message? How does that depend on the pattern being searched for? (Debra?)



These are interesting questions, Thomas. I have been working all day and now it's late . . . and I would like to say with certainty that this is a search subject to the Fourth Amendment warrant clause under the Katz holding . . . but . . . maybe a computer "sniff" of electronic communications could be treated similarly to a canine "sniff" in drug cases. Would a well-programmed computer be treated similarly to a well-trained narcotics detection dog?

The Supreme Court ruled that the investigative procedure of subjecting luggage to a "sniff test" by a well-trained narcotics detection dog does not constitute a "search" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment. See UNITED STATES v. PLACE, 462 U.S. 696 (1983); ILLINOIS v. CABALLES. A sniff is not a search. So the issue may hinge on whether the Court would consider computerized sniffing of communications similar to a canine sniffing of luggage or the trunk of a car -- or similar to thermal-imaging detection found to be unconstitutional in Kyllo v. United States, 533 U. S. 27 (2001).

These questions require critical thought.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Feb, 2006 12:58 am
Debra,
I have a question.

Out of curiousity,what area of the law do you specialize in,and are you board certified in that area?
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Feb, 2006 01:11 am
I am a juris doctor. What are you and are you certifiable?
0 Replies
 
StSimon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Feb, 2006 01:36 am
Debra_Law wrote:
I am a juris doctor. What are you and are you certifiable?


Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Feb, 2006 06:52 am
Well, Rove's and Cheney's strong arming tactics worked once again on the worthless gutless worms.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/14/AR2006021401812.html

Quote:
Congressional Probe of NSA Spying Is in Doubt
White House Sways Some GOP Lawmakers

By Charles Babington
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, February 15, 2006; A03



Congress appeared ready to launch an investigation into the Bush administration's warrantless domestic surveillance program last week, but an all-out White House lobbying campaign has dramatically slowed the effort and may kill it, key Republican and Democratic sources said yesterday.

The Senate intelligence committee is scheduled to vote tomorrow on a Democratic-sponsored motion to start an inquiry into the recently revealed program in which the National Security Agency eavesdrops on an undisclosed number of phone calls and e-mails involving U.S. residents without obtaining warrants from a secret court. Two committee Democrats said the panel -- made up of eight Republicans and seven Democrats -- was clearly leaning in favor of the motion last week but now is closely divided and possibly inclined against it.

They attributed the shift to last week's closed briefings given by top administration officials to the full House and Senate intelligence committees, and to private appeals to wavering GOP senators by officials, including Vice President Cheney. "It's been a full-court press," said a top Senate Republican aide who asked to speak only on background -- as did several others for this story -- because of the classified nature of the intelligence committees' work.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Feb, 2006 07:17 am
D Law whines - "What tactics? "Secret" government wiretapping of the enemy or "secret" government wiretapping of our own citizens? How has the revelation of the president's secret domestic spying program harmed us? "

With such a broad brush, you make it sound as if YOUR calls are being monitored between you and your mommy. Well unless Mommy is a terrorist, calling you from Afganistan, you are again misrepresenting what the administration has admitted.

It appears to me you do not want this administration to wiretap the enemy. Is this true?
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Feb, 2006 08:04 am
http://mprofaca.cro.net/echelonfr.html
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Feb, 2006 08:05 am
Debra_Law wrote:
I am a juris doctor. What are you and are you certifiable?


So,you dont specialize in any particular area of the law?
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Feb, 2006 08:17 am
mysteryman wrote:
Debra_Law wrote:
I am a juris doctor. What are you and are you certifiable?


So,you dont specialize in any particular area of the law?


It only means she passed the test
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Feb, 2006 08:18 am
apparently!!!

Every lawyer I know is proud of whatever area they specialize in and will gladly tell people.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Feb, 2006 08:25 am
woiyo wrote:
D Law whines - "What tactics? "Secret" government wiretapping of the enemy or "secret" government wiretapping of our own citizens? How has the revelation of the president's secret domestic spying program harmed us? "

With such a broad brush, you make it sound as if YOUR calls are being monitored between you and your mommy. Well unless Mommy is a terrorist, calling you from Afganistan, you are again misrepresenting what the administration has admitted.

It appears to me you do not want this administration to wiretap the enemy. Is this true?


Quote:
Intelligence officers who eavesdropped on thousands of Americans in overseas calls under authority from President Bush have dismissed nearly all of them as potential suspects after hearing nothing pertinent to a terrorist threat, according to accounts from current and former government officials and private-sector sources with knowledge of the technologies in use.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/04/AR2006020401373.html

Quote:



http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10454316/
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Feb, 2006 08:40 am
More links to spying on people with no links to terrorist.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10965509/site/newsweek/

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/11/23/MNGG53925E1.DTL

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/071805Z.shtml

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/01/06/nsa.amanpour/index.html
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Feb, 2006 08:44 am
mysteryman wrote:
Every lawyer I know is proud of whatever area they specialize in and will gladly tell people.

No offense mysteryman, but on a list of all people I would be proud to prove my credentials to, you wouldn't rank anywhere near the top. Perhaps Ms Law feels similarly. Perhaps she is lacking not fondness of her job, but fondness of you and your persistent habit of abusing political disagreements for personal put-downs. Assuming this, and given that you aren't going to hire her, what incentive would she have to disclose her résumé to you?
0 Replies
 
 

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