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Offended by Christmas?

 
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2005 08:58 pm
thanks for sharing this loveislikearose3, I see there is still work for us atheists as you point out we are not 100% successful in doing away with christmas. We must not falter now.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2005 09:20 pm
Miss Rose, could you possibly not yell with your posts?
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squinney
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2005 09:29 pm
Jespah - My suggestion of a menorah on every courthouse lawn was just to make the point that it would feel different to Christians if the tables were turned. I'm all about seperation of church and state.

Interesting video with some insight into the "debate" which helps make my earlier point that there really isn't a war on Christmas. It's just a ploy by the religious right.

Click Here for Video
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2005 09:43 pm
Squinney,

I clicked on that link. Am I supposed to click somewhere else to get the video? I couldn't find one. Thanx.
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Diane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2005 10:17 pm
Momma Angel, sometimes it seems that you purposely look for attacks on Christianity, on Christians and their religion. Believe me, this isn't ancient Rome, there will be no persecution or being thrown into a cage full of lions.

There have been so many reasoned, thoughtful responses on this thread, yet you never seem to understand that most of us would not have any problem with Chrisianity if it wasn't trying to make deep inroads into our government.

Never before has Christianity been so active in the federal government. It is frightening--all you have to do is look at history to understand the dangers, real dangers of religion attaining power in government. This is what we, or most of us, have a problem with. Sure, arguments take on a hostile tone, after a while, it seems that no one really reads the other's posts.

What Wolf O'Donnell said is so true, God cannot be destroyed. If you are a person of faith, why are you so concerned? Do you think any one of us want to destroy you or your church? If so, you haven't been paying attention. All we ask is respect for all religions and a strict separation of church and state. Is that too much? Since it has been a part of our government for so long, why is it a problem now? Just because the word Christmas is not used under every circumstance, how on earth do you think Christmas will be destroyed?

Christianity has been around for 2,000 years. I expect it will be around for at least another 2,000 years. Just because our country has become more ethnically diverse shouldn't put any religion at risk, but it should affect the way we acknowledge the religion of others. If that means that Christmas isn't as ubiquitous as it once was, certainly doesn't mean that it is purposely being destroyed. If the Romans couldn't do it, how do you think ordinary citizens of the US could do what the Romans failed doing?

I hope you have a lovely Christmas. I know I plan on enjoying the holiday myself.
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husker
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2005 10:28 pm
Diane and Dys you think you might be in Denver the first week of July?

oh and I talked to someone in NM today
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2005 10:46 pm
Diane,

First, thank you so much for that thoughtful post. I honestly mean that. You said what you had to say in such a nice way.

I do understand the separation between church and state, and I really have no problem with that Diane. I can see and understand both sides. I have had conversations with Mesquite where I have agred to a new wording of the Pledge of Allegiance and have no problem with it. I have said, I don't mind some of the changes and I don't. I can live with them. Of course, being a Christian, I don't want Christ or God taken out of anything, but I do understand the reasons some do. I just feel it is the beginning of taking God out of things.

I do understand how others feel, Diane. I understand what they are telling me. Some of the things I can accept and some I can't. It's all a matter of what we all believe.

I am trying very hard not to fall into that trap again of looking for everything that is against Christianity. I am trying to change the way I look at that particular issue. I am trying to meet it with humor and understanding. I don't have to attack when I perceived I am attacked, so in that respect, yes, I am guilty.

Thank you again for your post, Diane. I really do appreciate it. I honestly am trying to understand others better. When people post to me such as you have done, it helps me greatly.

And I wish you the very Happiest of Holidays!
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 07:54 am
Just in case anyone cares, I saw a Target ad on tv last night and guess what they had written at the end?

You guessed it.

Merry Christmas
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jespah
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 09:16 am
squinney wrote:
Jespah - My suggestion of a menorah on every courthouse lawn was just to make the point that it would feel different to Christians if the tables were turned. I'm all about seperation of church and state.

Interesting video with some insight into the "debate" which helps make my earlier point that there really isn't a war on Christmas. It's just a ploy by the religious right.

Click Here for Video


Oh, I know. Smile

Thank you for the link and have a good holiday. Bear must make for a skinny rockin' Santa, I'd imagine.
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jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 10:18 am
Quote:
Not so Silent Night

The effort by some cable TV hosts and ministers to force commercial establishments into wishing everyone a "Merry Christmas" might be more objectionable to the One who is the reason for the season than the "Happy Holidays" mantra required by some store managers.

I have never understood why so many Christians feel the need to see and hear "Merry Christmas" proclaimed to them at stores by people who may not believe its central message. While TV personalities, junk mail letters and some of the ordained bemoan the increasing secularization of culture; perhaps some teaching might be helpful from the One in whose behalf they claim to speak.

Jesus - the real one, not the Republican-conservative-Democrat-liberal one made in the image of today's fractured political culture - said His kingdom is not of this world. Why, then, are so many who claim to speak for Him demanding that this earthly kingdom celebrate Him and His Kingdom?

Paul the Apostle said, "We live by faith, not by sight." (2 Cor. 5:7). Jesus spoke a parable about the Kingdom of Heaven resembling a treasure hidden in a field (Matthew 13:44). The Apostle John warned, "Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For everything in the world - the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does - comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever." (1 John 2:15-17)


Let's see: Should the crass commercialization of "Christmas" and the focus on accumulating and giving stuff (each sold separately; batteries not included) be part of this indictment? Even a casual observer or biblical illiterate might reasonably draw such a conclusion.

The classic Christmas carol "O Little Town of Bethlehem," composed in 1868 by Phillips Brooks and Lewis H. Redner, rebukes those who have transformed Christmas from what it is into what it is not. This rebuke is not to the "world" and the way it has cashed in on Christmas, but to those who are committing spiritual adultery by embracing the world, while simultaneously claiming fealty to their "first love."

About Bethlehem, Brooks says, "How still we see thee lie." There is nothing "still" about the cacophony surrounding the modern Western observance of Christmas.

How about this verse: "How silently, how silently, the wondrous gift is giv'n." Oh that the shouters would become silent and let the only voice that matters speak for Himself. The rest of the verse is also a slap in the face to modern man: "So God imparts to human hearts the blessings of His Heav'n." Human hearts, not sellers of things made in China.

There's more: "No ear may hear His coming but in this world of sin, where meek souls will receive Him still, the dear Christ enters in."

Oh, my. Meek souls? How many of the self-proclaimed defenders of Christmas appear meek? In our era of nonstop sound and endless sound bites, the carol writers say you won't recognize the voice of Jesus through the physical senses.

I do not care if a mall employee wishes me a "Merry Christmas," or not, or if mall managers favor snowpersons over manger scenes, or erect trees they call "holiday" and not "Christmas." It isn't about their observing this event, giving us a "religious rush" and creating a false sense of security that culture is better than it is. It is about people who believe in this historic event observing it in a way that recalls the birth of the Savior of the world (not the savior of the bottom line): silently, wondrously and worshipfully.

Let the world get drunk at its office parties. Let it consume material things, pile up credit card debt and embrace other trappings of this counterfeit "Christmas" road show. I prefer the "original cast."

Another carol, less familiar, but even more to the point:

"Let all mortal flesh keep silence,

and with fear and trembling stand;

ponder nothing earthly-minded,

for with blessing in his hand,

Christ our God to earth descendeth,

our full homage to demand."

We should expect that homage only from those who "believe on His name," not from the Santa Claus worshippers.
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shewolfnm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 10:32 am
I cant wait for the day that the church 'industry' goes out of busniess and shuts thier doors
because an alien lands on our planet and informs us that
we are all just an expansion pack to the Sims house party.
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Questioner
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 10:35 am
shewolfnm wrote:
I cant wait for the day that the church 'industry' goes out of busniess and shuts thier doors
because an alien lands on our planet and informs us that
we are all just an expansion pack to the Sims house party.


It'll never happen. After so many thousands of years of believing in something they can't see, most christians would dismiss the alien as an agent of Satan sent to destroy their faith.
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jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 10:43 am
I'm not sure who is worse: religious people who push their religion into every aspect of life or those that make fun of them for doing so.

Who cares if somebody wants to go to church and practice a religion? That is their prerogative. It is also my prerogative not to go to church and not believe in your religion.

<shrugs> I just don't understand why everybody gets their panties in such a bunch over this.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 10:46 am
jpinMilwaukee,

Thank you for that. I appreciate you understanding that we all have the right to either practice or not practice religion and should not be made fun of because we either do or do not practice religion. Laughing
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 10:48 am
But neither should we be forced to practice it. Like being made to say Merry Christmas (don't know if this happens but I am sure it does in some stores) if we work in a retail store or have to look at and "enjoy" a nativity set at work if we work at city hall.
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jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 10:48 am
Why are you laughing?
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 10:51 am
Bella Dea,

So if you are forced to look at a nativity scene in a store you think what might happen?

Those that own stores have the right to display things in the store. I don't see how you can say they don't, if that's what you are saying.

They should not put a nativity scene in a store because you might be offended?

Bella, what if I am offended by let's say by smiling purple stripes worms wearing Santa Claus hats? You want me to start something about it? Or wouldn't the thing to do is just understand that you have a right to that purple worm. Take it out of the government buildings, fine. But, take it out of the stores that are owned by people? I don't think that is right at all.
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jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 10:52 am
Bella Dea wrote:
But neither should we be forced to practice it. Like being made to say Merry Christmas (don't know if this happens but I am sure it does in some stores) if we work in a retail store or have to look at and "enjoy" a nativity set at work if we work at city hall.


Have to look at a nativity scene??? Is it really a big deal? Is it in your job discription that you HAVE to look at it?
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 10:58 am
Momma Angel wrote:
Bella Dea,

So if you are forced to look at a nativity scene in a store you think what might happen?


My eyes will burn out and I will die. Kidding. I don't think anything will happen. But should they put up a menorah on the lawn next year in stead of a nativity set, I guarantee you there would be a group of fanatics screaming about it. The point is that Christians seem to think that somehow, their holiday is better than the others.

I want you people to stop making a big deal out of allowing other holiday's in this time of year. That's all.

And I have said over and over and over again I am not offended by any of this. I couldn't personally care less really what they do. But the fact remains that this whole season is grossly biased toward Christians and you people throw a fit when we want to level the playing field to allow all holiday's access to this time of year.

Not one person complaining that we are taking away Christmas has offered up one solution to this problem. Not one. At least that I've seen. If you have one, please let us know. Otherwise, the only solution we have is ours.
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2005 10:58 am
jpinMilwaukee wrote:


Have to look at a nativity scene??? Is it really a big deal? Is it in your job discription that you HAVE to look at it?


If it's right there at the entrance to work, in statues 6 feet tall, there isn't much choice now is there?
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