Offended by Christmas?

Heeven,

I am right there with you.

People! Do you see just how ridiculous this is all becoming? Everyone is so concerned about what they want and not wanting to be offended.

This is how the message gets lost in the translation, whether it be Christianity, Christmas, Jewish, etc.

What ever happened to the warm holiday feeling where everyone wished everyone Merry Christmas and it was taken with the kindness, with which it was offered? Why does there have to be an ulterior motive in wishing someone a Merry Christmas? If I say Merry Christmas to you, I am not telling you that you have to be a Christian or anything else for that matter. I am just telling you I hope you have a merry Christmas. That's the name of the holiday. It's on all the calendars. So what? Some celebrate it and some don't. I'm not offended if you don't celebrate it so why should you be offended if I do?

I am in such despair at how quickly this thread went right back into who is offended and who is not. The message was lost very quickly.

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hmm, we must have been reading different posts. i don't recall anyone on this thread saying christmas or no christmas offends him or her. quite contrary.

nothing wrong with wishing merry christmas. as long as it's genuine. not like that woman that's blaring music, buggering people in restaurants, shoving it in people's faces. that is not genuine. that is provocation and seeking arguments. that i do not like.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Heeven,

I am right there with you.

People! Do you see just how ridiculous this is all becoming? Everyone is so concerned about what they want and not wanting to be offended.

Well, we don't want to offend other people, do we? That's just rude.

Quote:

What ever happened to the warm holiday feeling where everyone wished everyone Merry Christmas and it was taken with the kindness, with which it was offered?

Not sure about the US, but it's still here in the UK.

Quote:

Why does there have to be an ulterior motive in wishing someone a Merry Christmas?

Why did you have to ask that question? None of us were even discussing that?

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If I say Merry Christmas to you, I am not telling you that you have to be a Christian or anything else for that matter.

Well, it could be taken that way, you see.

Quote:

I am just telling you I hope you have a merry Christmas. That's the name of the holiday. It's on all the calendars. So what? Some celebrate it and some don't. I'm not offended if you don't celebrate it so why should you be offended if I do?

And I think that's what quite a few of us are getting at.

Quote:

I am in such despair at how quickly this thread went right back into who is offended and who is not. The message was lost very quickly.

Please, stop despairing. You despair too easily. Religion and religious holidays are far too sturdy for their message to be lost through some non-issue like whether we should say "Happy Christmas" or "Happy Holidays".

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Isn't despair a sin? Shame! Smile

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Wolf,

It got to being about everyone not being offended again when questions like what about Kwanza, etc., entered into it. It seems there are some that feel since it is Christmas (Christ) that they are being imposed upon by Christianity.

Drewdad, you are such a hoot! Laughing

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are 'what about kwanzaa?' and 'what about hannukah' inappropriate questions when we are debating whether it should be 'happy holidays' instead of 'merry christmas'? how so?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Wolf,

It got to being about everyone not being offended again when questions like what about Kwanza, etc., entered into it. It seems there are some that feel since it is Christmas (Christ) that they are being imposed upon by Christianity.

Drewdad, you are such a hoot!

No one seemed genuinely offended, except for that one person whose name I forget, but he eventually decided not to be offended and to be interested instead in other people's culture.

Frankly, I'm beginning to like the way this thread opened someone's eyes to somebody else's culture.

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I'd like to address your question about why is everyone so sensitive all of a sudden, MA. I think a number of things have happened in the past 10 years or so that have resulted in what you see now.

One, people who have been offended for generations by having their non-Christian children forced to participate in Christmas pageants in public schools found a voice.

Two, the religious right in America gained a foothold in the political scene and found a power in the government it didn't have before.

Three, GWB was sortof elected President and announced he gets his answers from God which scared the bejesus out of everyone else

Four, the concept of the Christian homeland started to take hold and those who feel that we should all follow God's rule sent the rest of us looking for any possible alternative and gave a negative outlook to anything remotely religious in the public arena, Christian or otherwise.

I'm sure there are more...

I recently stated in another post that I live in a predominately Jewish area. Happy Holidays is safe, inclusive, and doesn't hurt anybody. If someone wishes me Merry Christmas I say, "and the same to you." If someone wishes me Happy Hanakah I say, "and the same to you." Guess what I say if someone wishes me Happy Holidays? <yup> During the High Holy days in fall I'm constantly hearing Happy New Year and I say, "and the same to you." No salt off my nose either way. If I know someone's religious affiliation I wish them a religious appropriate greeting, otherwise Happy Holidays works just fine.

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J_B wrote:

Three, GWB was sortof elected President and announced he gets his answers from God which scared the bejesus out of everyone else

Quick question, somewhat offtopic. . .

It is rather well known that most christians believe that God guides them. This being the case, are we then to bar anyone professing faith in God from government office?

And if so, do we have that right?

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J_B,

I can appreciate what you say. It's just a shame that some of the Christians that are in the limelight are the ones I don't feel are doing God's work. I, of course, can't speak for them, as I am sure they believe they are doing the right thing. But, to me, if it is causing so many to turn from even thinking about being Christian, how can they be doing the right thing?

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Questioner,

I don't care if it is off topic or not. I think it's a fascinating question.

Well, since you can't discriminate because of religion in hiring someone, I would think you couldn't do it in the case of someone running for public office. But then there is the question of separation of church and state, right? Uh oh, seems like a bit of a contradiction there to me.

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I knew this vegetarian once, he took a job in a butcher shop. He lectured the customers that they were evil for eating meat. The customers ate him. Oh well, as we say out here in the olde west, you are what you eat.

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thanks for the nice visual, Dys Shocked

Quote:

Religious Affiliation of U.S. Presidents
Denomination Number of Presidents Percent of Presidents
Episcopalian 11 26.2%
Presbyterian 10 23.8%
Methodist 5 11.9%
Baptist 4 9.5%
Unitarian 4 9.5%
Disciples of Christ 3
Dutch Reformed 2 4.8%
Quaker 2 4.8%
Congregationalist 2 2.4%
Catholic 1 2.4%
Jehovah's Witness 1 2.4%
TOTAL 42 100% 57.0%

# President Religion
1 George Washington Episcopalian (Deist)
2 John Adams Congregationalist (raised); Unitarian
3 Thomas Jefferson raised Episcopalian; later no specific denomination
held Christian, Deist, Unitarian beliefs
4 James Madison Episcopalian (deist?)
5 James Monroe Episcopalian (deist?)
6 John Quincy Adams Unitarian
7 Andrew Jackson Presbyterian
8 Martin Van Buren Dutch Reformed
9 William Henry Harrison Episcopalian
10 John Tyler Episcopalian (deist)
11 James Knox Polk Presbyterian; Methodist
12 Zachary Taylor Episcopalian
13 Millard Fillmore Unitarian
14 Franklin Pierce Episcopalian
15 James Buchanan Presbyterian
16 Abraham Lincoln raised Baptist; later no specific denomination (deist)
17 Andrew Johnson Christian (no specific denomination)
18 Ulysses S Grant Presbyterian; Methodist
19 Rutherford B. Hayes Presbyterian; Methodist (?)
20 James A. Garfield Disciples of Christ
21 Chester A. Arthur Episcopalian
22 Grover Cleveland Presbyterian
23 Benjamin Harrison Presbyterian
24 Grover Cleveland Presbyterian
25 William McKinley Methodist
26 Theodore Roosevelt Dutch Reformed; Episcopalian
27 William Howard Taft Unitarian
28 Woodrow Wilson Presbyterian
29 Warren G. Harding Baptist
30 Calvin Coolidge Congregationalist
31 Herbert Hoover Quaker
32 Franklin Delano Roosevelt Episcopalian
33 Harry S. Truman Southern Baptist
34 Dwight D. Eisenhower River Brethren; Jehovah's Witnesses; Presbyterian
35 John F. Kennedy Catholic
36 Lyndon B. Johnson Disciples of Christ
37 Richard M. Nixon Quaker
38 Gerald Ford Episcopalian
39 Jimmy Carter Baptist (former Southern Baptist)
40 Ronald Reagan Disciples of Christ; Presbyterian
41 George H. W. Bush Episcopalian
42 William Jefferson Clinton Baptist
43 George W. Bush Methodist (former Episcopalian)

http://www.adherents.com/adh_presidents.html

No one has ever claimed that the Presidents of the United States are not religious, most of them have professed a religious affiliation. Having a spiritual advisor in living one's private life is one thing. Making decisions as President based on private discussions with God is another.

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J_B wrote:

I'd like to address your question about why is everyone so sensitive all of a sudden, MA. I think a number of things have happened in the past 10 years or so that have resulted in what you see now.

One, people who have been offended for generations by having their non-Christian children forced to participate in Christmas pageants in public schools found a voice.

Two, the religious right in America gained a foothold in the political scene and found a power in the government it didn't have before.

Three, GWB was sortof elected President and announced he gets his answers from God which scared the bejesus out of everyone else

Four, the concept of the Christian homeland started to take hold and those who feel that we should all follow God's rule sent the rest of us looking for any possible alternative and gave a negative outlook to anything remotely religious in the public arena, Christian or otherwise.

I'm sure there are more...

I recently stated in another post that I live in a predominately Jewish area. Happy Holidays is safe, inclusive, and doesn't hurt anybody. If someone wishes me Merry Christmas I say, "and the same to you." If someone wishes me Happy Hanakah I say, "and the same to you." Guess what I say if someone wishes me Happy Holidays? <yup> During the High Holy days in fall I'm constantly hearing Happy New Year and I say, "and the same to you." No salt off my nose either way. If I know someone's religious affiliation I wish them a religious appropriate greeting, otherwise Happy Holidays works just fine.

Thank you.

A lot of people are volleying around what the Jews think. Well, I am a Jew. And of course I cannot speak for all of us but I will speak for myself.

I am well aware that the predominant religion in the US is not mine. I am reminded of that all the time. That's not nasty, it's not an offense. It's a fact.

And so, at times, I am wished a Merry Christmas this time of year. And I say, thank you, but it's Chanukah for me. And then I wish that person Happy Holidays. Because, well, (a) Christmas is not my holiday (and no, I don't call this time of year Christmas), (b) there is more than one holiday going on (everyone celebrates New Year's, right?) and (c) there is no c.

And most people get it, they correct themselves. And that's fine. I don't do this to make people uncomfortable; I do it because I am telling them a fact.

Shift gears - a few stories of what it's like to be in an invisible minority in this country.

1967 - I start public school in King of Prussia, Pennsylvania. Not a home of a lot of Jews but also not the deep, deep South, either. I do not get Yom Kippur off. I do not get Rosh Hashanah off. My folks take me out of school both days. I have to make up the work.

1971 - I am in fifth grade, same school. And many of my classmates are taking confirmation classes, during school hours. Rather than have them make up work, the teacher instead doesn't assign much of anything. Those few of us in class do a jigsaw puzzle.

1973 - I've lived in New York (Long Island) for almost a year. And for the first time in my life, I confront anti-Semitism. I am called a dirty Jew by two classmates. They are never disciplined.

1978 - I am in my junior year in High School. We are discussing family heritage and the subject turns to middle names. Some joker wants to know if my middle name is "Israel". The class laughs. He is never disciplined.

1979 - I start Boston University. My suitemate, a Catholic gal from Rhode Island, informs me that I am the first Jew she has ever seen. She is not hostile, just curious.

1995 - I start work at Liberty Mutual, Home Office. Most of my colleagues are Catholic. At holiday time, they wish me a Merry Christmas, I tell them it's Chanukah for me. My boss laughs, makes a crack about my looney religion.

1996 - I go on a business trip with a colleague. Again, it's holiday time. He makes jokes about my faith, laughs at Hebrew, thinks it sounds "funny".

1997 - I start going online. A woman asks me about Judaism, wants to know if it's the same as being a Unitarian. Wants to know how I celebrate Christmas.

1998 - Still at Liberty Mutual. I go on yet another business trip, with an accountant who is a graduate of an evangelical Christian college. In all innocence, she wants to know what my religion thinks of Jesus and how we integrate him into our faith. I mutter something incoherent while wondering when the stupid trip will end.

Those are the highlights. Sorry if people don't like Happy Holidays, but yanno something, I really don't care. I'm fed up. I have volleyed this for over 40 years. I tell you these things not to garner sympathy or elicit pity. I just want you all to know a little something about what this is like. I am sure other religious minorities have similar tales. From my perspective, it is to laugh when the predominant faith (or race, or gender, or national origin or whatever) complains about discrimination. Walk in my shoes some time. Walk in a Muslim's shoes. Or a Buddhist's. Or a Hindu's. Or a Taoist's. And then maybe we'll have something to talk about on this subject.

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jespha,

My point: NO ONE should be demeaned, belittled, laughed at, etc., for their faith.

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Well, if you walk far enough in his shoes (Like a mile or more) you get to keep his shoes. I was going to try to walk in Jespahs shoes but they didn't go with my eyes.(or my purse)

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dys,

Isn't it true that if jespah were black and saying these things had happened to him because of his race, you would then think the offenders to be bigots?

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Well ma, Jes is she not he and I have no idea what your question is.

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<psst, jespah is a she>

Did you mean the things Dys said or the things she heard? Of course what she heard was bigotry. That's why being insensitive to the fact that there are more than Christians in this country is the point.

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Quote:

No one has ever claimed that the Presidents of the United States are not religious, most of them have professed a religious affiliation. Having a spiritual advisor in living one's private life is one thing. Making decisions as President based on private discussions with God is another.

I didn't say that anyone had made the claim that they were not religious. I DID make the point that christians, at least a decent portion of them, believe that their lives are guided by god.

Does this knowledge mean that those who are now flipping out by the Shrub's statement are merely doing so out of a fundamental dislike for the current regime?

Also, I may have missed the complete quote by The Hedge, but I don't recall him saying he had a sit-down discussion with God. If he did, then kindly disregard the previous two posts by me, for the man is obviously addled.

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