I Say We Duke It Out!

Setanta,

Do you just skip over the part where I say I am for separation of church and state to a point? Actually, when I say lobbying, I am talking about the discussions on these threads and not necessarily out there in public.

I don't have a problem keeping religion separate from politics. But, I do have a problem with being told I can only do it in my home, church, etc. I have just as much right as you do to talk about my religion as you do to not talk about it.

You have just as much right to stand on a street corner and tell everyone how much against religion you are as I do telling someone how much for it I am.

So, I give you no church in politics. Is this enough for you? Or do you want more?

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"Civilization's irritations"
Sounds like a great band name.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Edgar,

Only to the point that it should be offered as an elective. Banning these classes, etc., is completing taking away from my rights, just as you would say condoning these and making them mandatory would be taking away from your rights. Your tax dollars work in schools and so do mine. So, I offer the compromise of making it elective and letting the people decide. It seems, to me, you don't want to let them decide. It seems, to me, in this case you are deciding for them.

Just my opinion Momma, but why can't schools teach academic stuff as they were designed to do and the Church teach the religious stuff as they were designed to do? I know that is too simple and does not address evolution and all that, but that is science... not religion anyhow.

Just a small point, but I make it a point to never use the word hate in any context. That way, it cannot be taken out of context.

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You seem to take a long time to reach understanding. That set of propositions on your part refers to freedom of speech, not the free exercise of religion. Therefore, you are incorrect when you state (as you clearly did--i'll go get the quote if you insist) that freedom from religion infringes on your freedom of religion.

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parados,

I completely understand and agree. But, I will tell you this. I will be one of the first to stand up and tell someone that "thinks they are doing the will of God" (such as bombing abortion clinics, etc.) that they are wrong and why I think they are wrong.

I don't agree with the Christianity at all cost doctrine. I have stated that many times and will stand by it.

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Setanta wrote:

DrewDad wrote:
I will state that I think MA's position comes under freedom of speech, not freedom of religion. She's free to stand on a soapbox and preach, but you're free not to listen.

Freedom of speech does not guarantee an audience.

And to reinforce a point, it would allow me to laugh her to ridicule if she preached from her soap box. It would allow me to set up right next to her on a soap box from which i heap scorn on every proposition she utters. Which would in no way infringer her free exercise of religion.

I was just trying to clarify what I understood to be her argument. You are welcome to your equal time on the soapbox.

<Imagines scene from Life of Brian with the prophets all lined up on boxes.>

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Momma Angel wrote:

Do you just skip over the part where I say I am for separation of church and state to a point?

By the by, did you skip over the part where EB noted that the problem is the "to a point" proposition?

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You are only for separation of church and state only to a point, Momma. That is why you will always be wrong in these discussions.

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DavidH wrote:

Intrepid - True, but the point I was trying to make was that it was not the church's fault that people weren't showing up.

Yes, I realized that and I hope that I did not appear to imply otherwise.

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DrewDad wrote:

<Imagines scene from Life of Brian with the prophets all lined up on boxes.>

He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy ! ! !

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Setanta wrote:

DrewDad wrote:

<Imagines scene from Life of Brian with the prophets all lined up on boxes.>

He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy ! ! !

I am not the Messiah! Now, f**k off!

How should we f**k off, Lord?

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Intrepid wrote:

J_B

I am sorry, but I think that your first sentence and your last sentence cancel each other out.

I was beginning to feel like a gnat again, Intrepid. Thank you for noticing. I was amazed that calling most of the NT fabrication was going unnoticed :wink:

In my dealings with people IRL, I do believe I am more christianlike than many Christians I know. I agree with (I think it was Edgar) that the message should be Peace on Earth, Goodwill toward men everyday, not just during the Christmas season. Like Wilso I see very little of that from those who wear their Christianity like a banner of superiority and self-righteousness, and they CAN stay the hell away from me, but they are doing their darnest not to.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Setanta,

Do you just skip over the part where I say I am for separation of church and state to a point? Actually, when I say lobbying, I am talking about the discussions on these threads and not necessarily out there in public.

I don't have a problem keeping religion separate from politics. But, I do have a problem with being told I can only do it in my home, church, etc. I have just as much right as you do to talk about my religion as you do to not talk about it.

You have just as much right to stand on a street corner and tell everyone how much against religion you are as I do telling someone how much for it I am.

So, I give you no church in politics. Is this enough for you? Or do you want more?

You entirely miss the point, MA - which is that Set or anyone else is as free to react and respond to your pronouncements in any way they see fit as are you free to excersize the same prerogative with respect to their pronouncements. Also, I find your current tack at odds with your previous pronouncements. I remind you of this:

[url=http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1682531#1682531]Momma Angel[/url] wrote:

J_B,

Thanx for answering me. Do I think it should be a Christian Homeland? Hmmm, well I won't lie. I believe if it was we would be better off. However, I realize this is an unrealistic expectation. If I didn't believe it should be a Christian homeland (actually Christian world is what I'd like) then my convictions would mean nothing.

The laws abolished by the New Testament were the ritual laws. The hygiene and food laws were the laws abolished, not the Ten Commandments nor the basic laws of Chrisitianity.

Like I said, I will work WITHIN THE LAW to lobby for the laws I would like to have, just as I would expect EVERYONE to work WITHIN THE LAW to lobby for the laws they would like to have.

I cannot go along with any law that I believe is in direct conflict with God's law. Abortion is legal so that just means it's legal in man's world. I would never have one so I can stick to my beliefs.

In the end, everyone has to deal with God on their own. But, that doesn't mean I would be a responsible Christian if I stopped lobbying for the laws as I think they should be. (Emphasis added by timber)

and submit it clearly and unambiguously is your stated intention to do all within your power to impose your will and preferences on the overall community.

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Timber,

I have no problem with anything I have said. I am just trying to get everyone to understand that when it is all boiled down to the simplest terms, we all are doing the same thing, which is: trying to get things the way we think they should be.

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That is not true at all. You continue to want a reservation, separation of church and state to a point. Apart from not being sufficiently honest to state precisely what that point is, you ignore that the rest of us are not proposing that you be obliged to believe or practice anything. The two positions are not equivalent.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Timber,

I have no problem with anything I have said. I am just trying to get everyone to understand that when it is all boiled down to the simplest terms, we all are doing the same thing, which is: trying to get things the way we think they should be.

Be that as it may, for one to assert endorsement of the separation of religion from politics while simultaneously actively seeking to impose religious concepts on public policy is an absurdity of the first order.

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Well gee Setanta, of course they are not equivalent. Because you aren't getting your way 100%.

A compromise is two sides coming to a resolution they can both accept. I am more than willing to say, let's offer it as an elective to those that would want it. You are saying, no, I want no one to have this period. And since both our tax dollars are being used here, I think we both should get some satisfaction from it.

I don't want it taught as science. It is not science. I agree with that.

Intrepid,

I understand your position and I take no offense in any way at all.

Perhaps I am having a hard time grasping something here, I don't know. That is why I keep asking questions.

It just seems to me that I keep getting told that the people should choose and when I offer a compromise that lets them choose, it's turned away.

And I get your point about the word hate and will work on that.

Davidh,

Your post with the f* off Lord is exactly the kind of offensiveness I am against.

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In order for there to be a compromise on any point, the point must first be well defined. Then all possible aspects must be discussed. Then there is a narrowing of aspects as agreement or disagreement is settled upon. Once all avenues have been explored and all parties agree on the end result... you have a compromise. I cannot see that happening here.

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Intrepid,

I fear you are right. I don't see a compromise here at all. It wasn't from lack of trying though.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Davidh,

Your post with the f* off Lord is exactly the kind of offensiveness I am against.

Actually, it was "how should we f**k off, Lord" and it's a quote from a movie, the same movie that I quoted in the rest of the post. I found the movie very funny, thought I'd share.
Didn't mean to offend, just having fun. Sad

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I Say We Duke It Out!

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