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Ture torture

 
 
Reply Mon 5 Dec, 2005 10:15 pm
This is why I object to calling standing on a box in a poncho "torture". It lessens the impact of true torture.
________________________________________________________

Iraq witness recounts torture, ?'meat grinder'
Witness against Saddam Hussein tells of violence in government's Room 63

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Men and women were tortured for days and babies were left to die in an interrogation facility that featured a meat grinder for human flesh, the first prosecution witness to face Saddam Hussein told the court on Monday.

After weeks of delay and legal arguments over security and the legitimacy of the court, the trial of Saddam and seven co-defendants heard graphic witness testimony of torture and summary execution.

Saddam and the other defendants are charged with crimes against humanity. They have pleaded innocent.
Story continues below ↓ advertisement

"I swear by God I walked by a room and on my left I saw a grinder with blood coming out of it and human hair underneath," said 38-year-old Ahmed Hassan, who said he had been kept in Room 63 at the Hakmiya intelligence headquarters in Baghdad.

Hassan, the first witness to face Saddam in court, said he was 15 when Saddam visited the village of Dujail in July 1982 and Shiite militants tried to assassinate him.

Speaking technically as an individual plaintiff alongside the state, Hassan said he and his family were among hundreds of people rounded up in a security operation run by Barzan Ibrahim al-Tikriti after an attempt on Saddam's life in the village.

Barzan, one of Saddam's three younger half-brothers and the former head of the feared Mukhabarat intelligence service, is one of Saddam's seven co-accused in the case relating to the killings of 148 mostly Shiite Muslim men from Dujail.

?'No one escaped torture'
"Barzan was present. He had red cowboy boots and blue jeans and a sniper rifle," Hassan, a stockily built man with a round face and gray beard, told the heavily fortified court in central Baghdad.

He said Saddam, from the Sunni Arab minority, asked a 15-year-old boy if he knew who he was. "He said 'Saddam.' Then Saddam hit him in the head with an ash tray," Hassan said.

With Barzan constantly interjecting from the dock and calling the testimony lies, Hassan said he was among hundreds of people taken from the Shiite village to the Hakmiya intelligence headquarters, run by Barzan.

He said it was while he was climbing the stairs there that he saw the meat grinder.

"No one escaped torture," he said. "They would put a mask on my eyes and because I was young it would fall down. I saw women being tortured."

"My brother was given electric shocks while my 77-year-old father watched," Hassan said.

"They told us, 'Why don't you confess, you will be executed anyway,' " he said. "One man was shot in the leg with two bullets. ... Some people were crippled because they had their arms and legs broken."

He said they were held in Hakmiya for 70 days.

While they were there, a woman told a guard that her infant baby needed milk or he would die. "He died and the guard threw him from the window," Hassan told the court. "Pregnant women gave birth in the prison. Their babies died."
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 4,390 • Replies: 73
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Dec, 2005 11:00 pm
I call it Ture Torture, myself.
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Dec, 2005 11:07 pm
Oh, it's supposed to say, "TRUE torture". Geez, it took me a minute of going, "What the hell is "ture torture?" before I realized it was a typo. I thought it was some Iraqi word.

Saddam. What a piece of **** he is, huh?
0 Replies
 
Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 03:10 am
In 1982?! That was when the USA had a great and valuable friend in Saddam Hussein and his regime wasn't it?


During those heady days nothing was too good for Iraq. Weapons, anthrax, army intelligence, helicopters and lots and lots and lots of pesticides for (wink, wink) 'agricultural' purposes.

Saddam's good and true friend Ronald Reagan even sent a Donald Rumsfeld (and a billion $) to let Saddam know that everything was fine and if he needed some assistance in killing Iranians, Kurds or dissident Iraqiis, he always could rely on the USA!!
0 Replies
 
callig
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 04:05 am
Just because you don't hear about "true torture" in the MSM doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Quote:

http://www.counterpunch.org/phillips12022005.html

Military autopsy reports provide indisputable proof that detainees are being tortured to death while in US military custody. Yet the US corporate media are covering it with the seriousness of a garage sale for the local Baptist Church.

A recent American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) posting of one of forty-four US military autopsy reports reads as follows:

"Final Autopsy Report: DOD 003164, (Detainee) Died as a result of asphyxia (lack of oxygen to the brain) due to strangulation as evidenced by the recently fractured hyoid bone in the neck and soft tissue hemorrhage extending downward to the level of the right thyroid cartilage. Autopsy revealed bone fracture, rib fractures, contusions in mid abdomen, back and buttocks extending to the left flank, abrasions, lateral buttocks. Contusions, back of legs and knees; abrasions on knees, left fingers and encircling to left wrist. Lacerations and superficial cuts, right 4th and 5th fingers. Also, blunt force injuries, predominately recent contusions (bruises) on the torso and lower extremities. Abrasions on left wrist are consistent with use of restraints. No evidence of defense injuries or natural disease. Manner of death is homicide. Whitehorse Detainment Facility, Nasiriyah, Iraq."


The ACLU website further reveals how: "a 27-year-old Iraqi male died while being interrogated by Navy Seals on April 5, 2004, in Mosul, Iraq. During his confinement he was hooded, flex-cuffed, sleep deprived and subjected to hot and cold environmental conditions, including the use of cold water on his body and hood. The exact cause of death was "undetermined" although the autopsy stated that hypothermia may have contributed to his death.

Another Iraqi detainee died on January 9, 2004, in Al Asad, Iraq, while being interrogated. He was standing, shackled to the top of a doorframe with a gag in his mouth, at the time he died. The cause of death was asphyxia and blunt force injuries.

So read several of the 44 US military autopsy reports on the ACLU website -evidence of extensive abuse of US detainees in Iraq and Afghanistan 2002 through 2004. Anthony Romero, Executive Director of ACLU stated, "There is no question that US interrogations have resulted in deaths." ACLU attorney Amrit Sing adds, "These documents present irrefutable evidence that US operatives tortured detainees to death during interrogations."


What a place the US is becoming.You cannot even complain about prisoner treatment in China without getting a red face!!!
And what is worse, the main culprit,Osama still rides along on his donkey in Pakistan.
IF and when the so-called war on terror ever ends,future generations may well look back in disbelief and wonder how it could have been that a nation that waged a global conflict under the banner of democracy could have so blatantly flouted that principle.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 08:11 am
Wow. Saddam puts people through a meat grinder and you guys complain and makes comments about typos, Reagan, and Osama... Shocked

It's sad. I'm disgusted.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 08:16 am
So who cares whether or not you are sad and disgusted? If a sanctimonious, self-righteous Buddhist who delights in killing, the slaughter of thousands, now wants to castigate the left because they won't join him a bout of crocodile tears, we're supposed to be impressed? Your basic argument is so typical of witless rightwingnutism--"Oh yeah ? ! ? ! ? Well look what them guys did, they're much worse than we are! ! !" As though the depth of anyone else's depravity ever justifies the depraved on the part of our nation. We have a hypocritical and militarily incompetent administration preening itself in the MSM spotlight on their noble cause of bringing democracy and freedom to the middle east, which they cannot seem to accomplish without torturing people held incommunicado without habeus corpus, without benefit of counsel and without trial. And your justification? Well, just look how bad Hussein was.

It's sad. I'm disgusted.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 08:20 am
Re: Ture torture
McGentrix wrote:
This is why I object to calling standing on a box in a poncho "torture". It lessens the impact of true torture.

And this is why I thought they should have shown all of the pictures, not just the ones deemed not to be too disturbing.

Shall I post the account of the gentlemen who were handcuffed to the ceiling and had their legs beaten until they were beyond medical help and died?

You're a real piece of work, McG.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 08:22 am
And what Set said.

"I'm not supposed to hit my brother? Well Jimmy's brother hits him with a brick!"
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 08:24 am
I hit my brother with a brick once't . . . in 1955 . . . he hasn't forgotten . . .
0 Replies
 
Sturgis
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 08:28 am
McGentrix wrote:
Wow. Saddam puts people through a meat grinder and you guys complain and makes comments about typos, Reagan, and Osama... Shocked

It's sad. I'm disgusted.


But not surprised...and around here, neither am I.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 08:32 am
Re: Ture torture
DrewDad wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
This is why I object to calling standing on a box in a poncho "torture". It lessens the impact of true torture.

And this is why I thought they should have shown all of the pictures, not just the ones deemed not to be too disturbing.

Shall I post the account of the gentlemen who were handcuffed to the ceiling and had their legs beaten until they were beyond medical help and died?

You're a real piece of work, McG.


You don't get it do you?

I am in no way suggesting anyone is less guilty of anything because someone else's actions. If that's what you get from the first post of thread then you obviously misconstrued what was written.

You are now guilty of the same offense you accuse me of. Trying to make limited cases of abuse become monstrous cases of torture and it's just not true. The left has no concept of the difference between abuse and torture. They have become interchangeable in the liberal lexicon That was my point. Some of you have no actual concept of what torture is and that saddens me.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 08:35 am
So what ARE you saying, McG?

Saddam is a bad guy who did bad things including torture. Full stop.

And? Are you saying that no Americans oversaw or conducted any "true torture"? Where is the line between "true torture" and, I dunno, "torture lite"?
0 Replies
 
rodeman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 08:43 am
Apparently if it's "only" psychological torture, it's OK in McG's book.........................??
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 08:44 am
(As DrewDad points out, we know it went well beyond that, to physical torture causing death...)
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 09:01 am
Re: Ture torture
McGentrix wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
This is why I object to calling standing on a box in a poncho "torture". It lessens the impact of true torture.

And this is why I thought they should have shown all of the pictures, not just the ones deemed not to be too disturbing.

Shall I post the account of the gentlemen who were handcuffed to the ceiling and had their legs beaten until they were beyond medical help and died?

You're a real piece of work, McG.


You don't get it do you?

If you mean do I get that you want to turn a blind eye to abuses under the watch of the US? Yes, I get it.

McGentrix wrote:
I am in no way suggesting anyone is less guilty of anything because someone else's actions. If that's what you get from the first post of thread then you obviously misconstrued what was written.

You were comparing actions under Saddam's regime to actions under the US occupation; you cherry picked the two incidents in an attempt to whitewash torture by the US and its allies. Am I close?

McGentrix wrote:
Trying to make limited cases of abuse become monstrous cases of torture and it's just not true. The left has no concept of the difference between abuse and torture. They have become interchangeable in the liberal lexicon That was my point. Some of you have no actual concept of what torture is and that saddens me.

I'm clear on what torture is. The fact that the media is unable to display images of "true torture" on television doesn't affect my understanding in the least. Apparently it does affect your understanding, however.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 09:06 am
I am not trying to whitewash anything. I am not comparing Saddams actions to US actions. I posted a story showing what actual torture is and what the Iraqi people had to go through while in the hands of a sadistic bastard.

"Torture" has become nothing more than a buzzword in liberal circles and has lost all meaning when coming from their mouths.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 09:12 am
That again begs the question -- does that mean you think that no Americans oversaw or conducted any "true torture"?
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 09:13 am
McGentrix wrote:
I am not trying to whitewash anything. I am not comparing Saddams actions to US actions. I posted a story showing what actual torture is and what the Iraqi people had to go through while in the hands of a sadistic bastard.

"Torture" has become nothing more than a buzzword in liberal circles and has lost all meaning when coming from their mouths.

You specifically mentioned the famous photo of a poncho-clad prisoner standing on a box. Backpedal all you want, but the fact remains that you made a comparison. And a devious comparison, too, as you deliberately turn a blind eye to the accounts of torture by the US.

If you wish to discuss whether various "techniques" constitute torture, then let's go.



1. Beating someone's legs until they would require surgery to be able to walk again. Then allowing them to hang handcuffed from the ceiling until they die. Torture or not torture?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 09:19 am
Woman Testifies of Torture by Saddam's Men

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A woman testified Tuesday from behind a screen ?- her voice disguised but her weeping still apparent ?- that she was assaulted and tortured with beatings and electric shocks by
Saddam Hussein's agents in the trial of the former president and seven lieutenants.

Saddam sat stone-faced, taking notes on a pad of paper, as the woman, known only as "Witness A," told the court how she and dozens of other families from the town of Dujail were arrested in a crackdown after a 1982 assassination attempt against Saddam.

Two other witnesses ?- a man and a woman ?- testified Tuesday, all with their identities concealed.

"I was forced to take off my clothes, and he raised my legs up and tied up my hands. He continued administering electric shocks and beating me," Witness A said of Wadah al-Sheik, an Iraqi intelligence officer who died of cancer last month.

Several times, the woman ?- hidden behind a light blue curtain ?- broke down. "God is great. Oh, my Lord!" she moaned, her voice electronically deepened and distorted.

She strongly suggested she had been raped, but did not say so outright. When Chief Judge Rizgar Mohammed Amin asked her about the "assault," she said: "I was beaten up and tortured by electrical shocks."

The witness, who was 16 at the time of her arrest, repeated that she had been ordered to undress.

"I begged them, but they hit with their pistols," she said. "They made me put my legs up. There were five or more, and they treated me like a banquet."

"Is that what happens to the virtuous woman that Saddam speaks about?" she wept, prompting the judge to advise her to stick to the facts.

When asked by the judge which of the defendants she wanted to accuse, "Witness A" identified Saddam. "When so many people are jailed and tortured, who takes such a decision?" she said.

She later quoted a security officer as telling her "you are lucky to be at the Mukhabarat (center) and remain a virgin." She also said that many fellow female detainees lost their virginity to security guards.

Saddam and the others are on trial for the killing of more than 140 Shiites in the town of Dujail north of Baghdad and could be executed by hanging if convicted.

The measures taken to preserve the first witness' anonymity complicated the testimony. At first, defense attorneys complained they could not hear her because of the voice distortion. The judge then ordered the voice modulator shut off, but then the audience could not hear at all, so Amin ordered a recess, and the modulator was fixed, allowing all to hear.

Defense attorneys insisted on questioning the witness face to face and demanded that the defendants should also see her. So after she gave her testimony for over an hour, Amin ordered the session closed to the public, pulling screens in front of the press and visitors gallery and cut the sound.

Later, a second woman took the stand, identified as "Witness B." She said she was 74 years old and recounted how her family was arrested in 1981 ?- a year before the Dujail incident.

Until that point in her testimony, her voice was modulated. But again, the judge decided it wasn't working properly. The system was turned off and all of the electronic feeds from the court room cut, including to the press gallery, before the witness could explain the relevance of a 1981 arrest.

"Witness C," a man, testified that he was taken by security forces along with his parents and two infant sisters. They spent 19 days at the intelligence headquarters and 11 months in
Abu Ghraib, where his father died after being beaten on the head. Then they spent three years in the desert.

"At the intelligence headquarters, they put two clips in my ears," the witness said, adding that he was told that if he lied, he would be given an electric shock. When he answered a question, the shock was administered, he said.

"In prison they used to bring men to the women's room and ask them to bark like dogs," he said. "My father died in prison and I was not able to see him." He added that his father, who was 65 and had heart problems, was kept in a room about 50 yards from him.

That prompted an outburst from Saddam, who complained of his own conditions in detention. He said the court had time to listen to the witnesses' complaints "but does anyone ask Saddam Hussein whether he was tortured? Whether he was hit?"

He urged the judge to investigate his conditions because "it is your duty as judges to investigate the crime at its scene."

"I live in an iron cage covered by a tent under American democratic rule. You are supposed to come see my cage," he told Amin. "Please, Mr. Judge, do not accept any insult to
Iraq. It doesn't matter if he insults Saddam Hussein, because the Americans and the Zionists want to execute Saddam Hussein. What does the execution of Saddam Hussein matter? He has given himself to Iraq from the day he was at school and has been sentenced to death three times already. Saddam Hussein and his comrades are not afraid of execution."

Witnesses have the option of not having their identities revealed as a security measure to protect them against reprisals by Saddam loyalists. The first two witnesses ?- both men who took the stand Monday ?- allowed their names to be announced and their pictures to be transmitted around the world.

Although Saddam confronted the male witnesses Monday, he sat stone-faced as Witness A testified, describing four years in Saddam's prisons after she and other families were swept up in Dujail following the shooting attack on Saddam's motorcade.

She said she was held and tortured at a detention facility there before being taken to the notorious Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad. Later they were taken to a desert facility outside the southern city of Samawah.

At the Dujail facility, she said she was thrown into a room with red walls and ceiling in an intelligence department building and that prisoners were given only bread and water to eat.

"I could not even eat because of the torture," she said.

At Abu Ghraib, the guards stripped one of her male relatives, a deaf mute, and tied a rope to his genitals, pulling him into the cells where the women were kept, she said. Insects were everywhere ?- in cells and on their clothes, she said, adding that inmates used prison blankets to make underwear and fashioned shoes out of cardboard and strings.

She said one of her relatives wanted to give birth in jail. "The baby was out. When some women tried to help her, the guards prevented them," and the baby died, she said.

"I was freed at the end when I was 20," she said. "All my friends became doctors and teachers, and I am now just a housewife."
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