Define God

@Frank Apisa,

neologist wrote:

The concept of eternal punishment is a pagan belief not supported by scripture.

Frank Apisa wrote:

You gotta be careful there, Neo. The entire concept of gods...and of gods impacting on the world and the human predicament....is derived from pagan belief.

Once you start throwing out the stuff that started as a result of "pagan belief"...you are not left with a hell of a lot of anything.

Well, yeah!
All you have is
> Jehovah's purpose for Adam and Eve to live forever and fill the earth with their perfect offspring,
> The rebellion, all the misery that has intervened, and
> Jehovah's purpose

1 Reply

@Herald,

What you are saying is that you don't believe the Bible.
That's OK
We can start from there

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

neologist wrote:
The concept of eternal punishment is a pagan belief not supported by scripture.
Frank Apisa wrote:
You gotta be careful there, Neo. The entire concept of gods...and of gods impacting on the world and the human predicament....is derived from pagan belief.

Once you start throwing out the stuff that started as a result of "pagan belief"...you are not left with a hell of a lot of anything.
Well, yeah!
All you have is
> Jehovah's purpose for Adam and Eve to live forever and fill the earth with their perfect offspring,
> The rebellion, all the misery that has intervened, and
> Jehovah's purpose

The fact is that the god apparently did not have eternal life in mind for Adam and Eve. Otherwise he would have allowed them to eat of the fruit of the tree of eternal life. Instead, he let them flounder about being tempted to eat of another tree...one they had no idea would get them into great trouble. They did not know good from evil.

"Jehovah's purpose" had to be to trick the couple into doing what they did. That almost certainly is the purpose of the myth. You really seem nervous about acknowledging that, Neo. Why is that?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Seems like a huge effort just to create an aeons long soap opera.
Like an artist destroying his paintings

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Seems like a huge effort just to create an aeons long soap opera.
Like an artist destroying his paintings

The story seems to be a rather unsophisticated attempt to justify the human condition and predicament...using the "there are gods" scenario, Neo.

This story almost certainly is the creation of a person intent on explaining the kinds of things we often talk about here...why is there so much "suffering."

And person creating the myth apparently was convinced there was a creator god (obtained from pagans)...and tried to make the story work.

He (or she) was not the sharpest tool in the shed...and the story got all screwed up.

Now...only people who have a huge stake in the story being factual in some way...or reasonable in some way...see it as factual or even remotely reasonable.

1 Reply

Neologist claimed:

Quote:

The concept of eternal punishment is a pagan belief not supported by scripture

You gotta be kidding boy!
Check these quotes of Jesus himself, you can argue it out with him when you meet him.. Smile

"everlasting fire" (Matt 18:8, 25:41)
"eternal damnation" {Mark 3:29}
"the fire that never shall be quenched" (Mark 9:43, 45)
"the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44, 46, 48)
"Where their worm dieth not" (Mark 9:44, 46, 48)
"everlasting punishment" (Matt 25:46)

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Now...only people who have a huge stake in the story being factual in some way...or reasonable in some way...see it as factual or even remotely reasonable.

Who is interested in facts or being reasonable. Any serious and reasonable appreciation of the facts is terrifying.

0 Replies

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

What you are saying is that you don't believe the Bible.

Before 'believing' is the 'understanding'.
Take for example this one:
- I am the Lord your God;
- I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger and he that believeth on me shall never thirst;
- I am the bread that came from heaven;
- I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness;
- I am the door of the sheep;
- I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved;
- I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep;
- I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me though he were dead, yet shall he live;
- I am the first and the last .... etc.
If I trust this, I cannot understand how exactly this being (or thing) described in the text above all of a sudden becomes somehow omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent (the classical understanding of the Church about God)? How does that happen?

1 Reply

@Herald,

Can we establish a few things?
Please provide chapter and verse for your citations. You are apparently confusing statements about Jehovah with statements about Jesus.
Also:
God is neither omnipresent nor omniscient.
He resides in Heaven (wherever that may be). His holy spirit may be omnipresent, for it is by His spirit that He is aware.
While He is capable of knowing our moral outcome in advance, he is under no more obligation to peer into our future than you are to peer at the last page of the whodunnit. If we do not have free will, he could not offer us choice.Check my signature.

1 Reply

Neologist claimed:

Quote:

God is neither omnipresent nor omniscient

Nice try mate but you only score one out of two there.. Smile

Omnipresent means "exists everywhere" so you flunk on that one-
God said- "Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?" declares the Lord . "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" (Jer 23:24)

"Omniscient" means all-knowing, but God has suspended that power on this earth and has given us free will to see how we do because the earth is a testing ground, so you've got that one right.. Smile

"Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life.." (James 1:12)[/]

2 Replies

@Romeo Fabulini,

We used to wonder how God could be a kazillion miles away and yet know everything in real time.

Then Higgs Boson was discovered. Now we can understand how, in Genesis, God's spirit could accomplish the creative work. The boson may or may not be the answer; but the relationship between matter and energy provides the clue. In that sense, God can be everywhere though His Person is in Heaven. Therefore, the word 'omnipresent' is misleading.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

We used to wonder how God could be a kazillion miles away and yet know everything in real time.

Then Higgs Boson was discovered. Now we can understand how, in Genesis, God's spirit could accomplish the creative work. The boson may or may not be the answer; but the relationship between matter and energy provides the clue. In that sense, God can be everywhere though His Person is in Heaven. Therefore, the word 'omnipresent' is misleading.

The word "God" is misleading.

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

As far as a 'testing ground' is concerned, who do you say is administering the 'test'?

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

The word "God" is misleading.

Sorry. I should have said Jehovah.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
The word "God" is misleading.
Sorry. I should have said Jehovah.

Meh...you coulda said Schultz.

Same comment holds.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Coulda woulda shoulda, Frank
Too much of that at our age

0 Replies

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Please provide chapter and verse for your citations.

What difference does it make who is the prophet ... if everything in the Bible is claimed to be the Word of God.

neologist wrote:

God is neither omnipresent nor omniscient.

You may go and explain this to the faculty of theology at the local university.
http://www.cogwriter.com/god-omnipotent-omniscient-omnipresent.htm

neologist wrote:

His holy spirit may be omnipresent, for it is by His spirit that He is aware.

If His holy spirit is omnipresent it should be able to be detected somehow (by the alpha and thetha frequencies of the 'Mind of God' or something of the kind).

neologist wrote:

While He is capable of knowing our moral outcome in advance ...

Where do you know this from (that He is capable of knowing, that the outcome of the events is knowable at all, that our moral is predicable, and why should somebody know something in advance at all ... is He a fortune teller or what)?

neologist wrote:

... he is under no more obligation to peer into our future

You are talking as if you know what are 'the obligations' of God (if any) towards us?

neologist wrote:

If we do not have free will, he could not offer us choice.

1. You don't have evidences that we have free will (even if it is not constrained by the Will of God, our will is constrained by the 'free will' of all the people around us, and by the limited resources of the Earth, and by the money that we may have and by the money of the people around us that they may have and that constrain our free will by forcing us to work for them and to provide goods and services ... for pennies, etc.)
2. The 'choice' is restrained by all of the above said constraints and the constraints may provide no choice, or some choice that we don't like.
3. '... He could not offer'
- Why should He offer something at all?
- Who are we to have offers by God ... or whomever?
- ... and you are not even sure whether it is 'could' or 'would' ... etc.
Most of your claims are stochastic with more or less probability component and you are presenting them as being absolute and indisputable truth.

1 Reply

Neologist claimed:

Quote:

God can be everywhere though His Person is in Heaven. Therefore, the word 'omnipresent' is misleading

Learn mate, God said- "I fill heaven and earth" (Jer 23:24) which means he's omnipresent and exists EVERYWHERE at once.. Smile

You JW's and other vanity-cultists love to split hairs and over-complicate everything in an attempt to make us think you know more than us poor schmucks-
Mormons say: "Whoever thinks the Bible is sufficient and infallible are fools" (Book of Mormon II Nephi 29:3-10)
Jehovahs Witnesses say:-"If you try to study the Bible without our help,you go into darkness" (Watchtower 15 Sep 1910,page 298)
Like I've said before, cults have got satan's fingerprints all over them and he's using the JW's and Mormons as his ventriloquist dummies to say on his behalf that the Bible is too complex for ordinary people to understand so they might as well give up on it!

Too complex my ass.. Smile

Paul said - "I'm worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ" (2 Cor 11:3)
"When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus" (Acts 4:13)
Jesus said:- "I thank you Father for hiding these things from the wise and learned,and for revealing them to little children"(Matt 11:25-27)
"And the common people heard Jesus gladly" (Mark 12:37)

Satans cultist lackeys can't get under God's radar-
"If anyone preaches a perverted gospel they're accursed" (Gal 1:6-9)
"Beware men who try to spoil you with enticing words,deceitful philosophy not after Christ" (Col 2:4-8 )
"Ignorant people distort things,to their own destruction" (2 Pet 3:16/17)
"Some shall believe seducing spirits and doctrines of devils" (1 Tim 4:1)
"Little children,let nobody lead you astray" (1 John 3:7)
"Ungodly men have slipped in among you" (Jude 4)
"Don't get carried away by strange teachings" (Heb 13:9)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Romeo Fabulini: he shoots, he scores!

http://imageshack.us/a/img51/7025/zu1s.jpg

1 Reply

Neologist asked:

Quote:

As far as a 'testing ground' is concerned, who do you say is administering the 'test'?

God of course! Who do you think the drill instructor is, Bugs Bunny?.. Smile

Here's one of my sensational articles-

GOLD BERET
Just as Army Regiments award the beige beret (SAS), green beret beret (US Special Forces) and red beret (Brit Paras), so does God award us a gold beret if we get through his assault course-.

It won't be easy:-
"All creation groans in pain from the beginning til now" (Rom 8:22)

But it sorts the men from the boys:-
"We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22)

Jesus welcomes anybody into his squad:-
"Whoever comes to me I'll never turn away" (John 6:37)

And he'll lead by example:-
"Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:27)

The C.O. shows no favouritism:-
"God didn't spare his own son" (Rom 8:32)

So if he can hack it so can we:-
"We share in Jesus's sufferings in order to share in his glory" (Rom 8:17)

And others have stayed the course too:-
"I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith" (2 Tim 4:7)

Then if we qualify we win the Gold Beret:-
"Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life.." (James 1:12)

But for those who want a soft, easy religion or cult, Christianity's not for them -
"They prefer teachers who only tell them what they want to hear" (2 Tim 4:3)

Waddya say Bob?

"Take the pain! TAKE THE PAIN!"

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/Barnes.jpg

1 Reply

@Herald,

Herald wrote:

What difference does it make who is the prophet ... if everything in the Bible is claimed to be the Word of God..

Why should I have to sort and search through multiple translations just to correct your errors. Tell us where you found your citations so they can be evaluated.

1 Reply

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