Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2015 03:16 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

My approach is considerably less complicated. The word omniscience implies complete foreknowledge, that the God who created us knew in advance the thousands of years of misery his creatures would endure, thereby making him responsible for our state of affairs. Such an indictment is not supported by scripture and I reject it outright....

What is scripture supported by, other than your wish that it were true?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2015 04:56 pm
@Herald,
Nevertheless, many consider omniscience to mean necessary knowledge of the future. That is where the doctrines of predestination and reprobation come in.

So, what are we talking about?
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2015 11:53 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
Nevertheless, many consider omniscience to mean necessary knowledge of the future.
     This omniscience IMV comes as antithesis to the theses of the agnosticism, which claims that there might exist some things that are unknowable ... like for example the assumptions for the 'creation' of the world. The main idea of the Church has been to overtrump the Agnostics, but in doing so it sinks into irresolvable contradictions - BTW in the very same way as Science becomes jester with its Big Bang 'theory' claims.
neologist wrote:
That is where the doctrines of predestination and reprobation come in.
     ... which perhaps should be revised in the light of the new realities, incl. the reality of the absolute inability of the Big Bang 'theory' to provide any plausible, feasible and convincing explanation of the world - inability not too much different from some of the claims of the Church.
0 Replies
 
cvaontology
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2015 01:34 pm
@neologist,
I would like to say that belief does not come into play when we consider that the truth is we exist. If we are here asking questions like is there a God, then a better question is why are we here? In the end there is only one truth. Belief does not make it true or false unless for some weird reason that matters. If I believe that atoms are just a made up thing provided by scientist, that does not mean they don't exist, even though I have never seen one with my own eyes through a microscope. However, the idea that God and tiny little things make up everything, was an idea conceived 2,400 years ago by Socrates and company. One of them has turned out to be true. I would use Spinoza's theory of "one substance" (although it may have come from Leibniz first) I think that in general, this makes perfect sense. The idea that one substance exists infinitely in every possible way with intelligence and free will to do and be what it wishes is where I place my bet. Spinoza did not think God had a choice in what he is or will become but I think thats were he missed it. Where he had it right are in his writings about one substance having infinite power to exist as a reason to exist rather then nothing existing. I think that "logically" he had that right and thats why, obviously there is something in existence. The next question is why he chose to build a "self sustaining" universe at least from our perspective?
0 Replies
 
cvaontology
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2015 02:06 pm
@neologist,
God is a word in our language that means everything. Everything includes consciousness, self awareness, intelligence, free will, love and most of all what is and always will be. If God was not all these things nothing would be here by now when we take time into consideration. I am not religious and I am ok with those who are, however God does not need religion on our little planet to explain reality through out our universe and possibly other universes. What are the chances that we would wake up and find ourselves to be the first generation in our universe with conscious intelligence? In other words, why are we not asking why the universe is 300 billion years old? Funny that there is so conveniently so much space in between planets and there is a speed limit for mass. Also, why does science think its ok to say that all mass in the universe can fit into something smaller then an atom and then explode faster then the speed of light. Which breaks their own laws on two accounts? Funny that sounds like making something up just to provide an explanation for what is. God is everything and we need to find out why he put us here.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2015 09:15 pm
@cvaontology,
"Free will" means what is natural in human behavior. Some leaders have been responsible for the holocaust, and killing of tens of thousands of their own countrymen.

One only need to understand that these mass killings have happened in Russia during 1932-1933, over 2 million died from starvation, China during 1942 and 1943, over 2 million died from starvation, and other countries were also affected.
cvaontology
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2015 07:50 am
@cicerone imposter,
Yes those are some facts of truth for what some have chose to do. It is a shame, however, each person can also chose not to do those things. What are the odds that humans are done acting that way? From what we see going on in the middle east, the odds do not look good. Cheers
0 Replies
 
jayram
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Mar, 2015 12:54 pm
@neologist,
"I am the original fragrance of the earth, and I am the heat in fire. I am the life of all that lives, and I am the penances of all ascetics." – Bhagavad Gita As It Is - A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, spiritual master 07.09

All Varieties of fragrance come from the earth. The gardener uses the same fertilizer and same water but different flowers have different fragrances. How is this done? Can any scientist answer? Why are there differences? If it is nature and the ingredients are the same, why is nature not producing the same kind of flower or tree or fruit?

Bhagavad-gita says that nature is not all in all. Nature, the material elements, cannot work independently. There is superintendence by the Supreme Personality of Godhead God. He dictates "This seed will produce this flower and this fregrance." We fools cannot explain the variety. We say nature but What is nature? There must be a brain behind nature. Otherwise, how does a rose come out so nicely? Even from the artistic point of view, if you want to paint a flower you have to take so much labor. You have to use instruments and mix color and even then the flower you paint is not as good as the original flower.

So if you have to apply so much brainpower to paint a third-class flower, how can the first class flower have no brain behind it? is that very good logic? There must be a brain. And that is stated here: “It is under My superintendence.”

God is giving us intelligence: “If you do not go to the temple or do not hear from the spiritual master, you can at least try to understand My presence when you see or smell a flower.” Is that very difficult? God consciousness is so nice that you can be God conscious even by drinking water, even by seeing the sunshine, even by seeing the moonshine. Or if you are a Vedic scholar, by chanting om or even by hearing the sound vibration. Or by seeing a flower or smelling a flower. Or by seeing something brilliant.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Sat 28 Mar, 2015 01:00 pm
@jayram,
What is there about the air of the subcontinent that causes this?
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Mar, 2015 01:10 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Were you actually able to read his post?
My eyes glazed over
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Sat 28 Mar, 2015 01:16 pm
@neologist,
On those kinds of posts...I do a skim...the first few words of each paragraph...and the last few. If I think anything has actually been said...I read the entire paragraph...until my eyes start to glaze over.
0 Replies
 
julian paul
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Apr, 2015 10:23 am
@neologist,
Where ever you look , what ever you look at , everything we touch and with every breath we take with all the things will feel and receive through the thoughts we receive , The Life force we have given with being born , magnetic impulses that flow through our veins , Step back and look down upon the holy grail and you will see all that there is to see and know , the Earth and all that's upon it stands for all to see as the holy grail when the realisation of having the knowledge of knowing all the answers to all the questions , to solving all the problems with having all the solutions to every problem .
neologist
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Apr, 2015 11:26 am
@julian paul,
Define "holy grail".

Oh. And welcome to a2k.
Smileyrius
 
  3  
Reply Tue 7 Apr, 2015 05:57 pm
@neologist,
What a silly question Neo, it was the little wooden cup in the last crusade, don't you watch Indiana Jones?
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2015 05:44 am
@Smileyrius,
Not according to Dan Brown!
Smileyrius
 
  2  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2015 06:39 am
@Frank Apisa,
Unless Dan brown confesses faith in the full works of George Lucas, his soul cannot be saved.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2015 07:46 pm
@Smileyrius,
Any definition of god are the ones people have in their own imagination, because he's a creation of men. I like the one where god has two horns coming out from his forehead. Twisted Evil
0 Replies
 
jayram
 
  2  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2015 12:07 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Dear Frank,

Can you explain the question? No offences meant, just to better understand.
Do you mean that you think the air of the subcontinent is causing fragrances?
Or something else?

Is there anything in my explanations that you did not understand?

Regards,
Jay

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2015 12:13 pm
@jayram,
Jayram...I was just being a wise-ass about all the spirituality I saw in your post.

Just disregard it.

I love nice smells myself...we have a huge stand of honeysuckle on both sides of our property...and I am aching for May to come, when the fragrance will be in full strength.

Peace!
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Apr, 2015 12:16 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I think Jayram was using a rather grandiloquent application of a gradations argument for the existence of God.
 

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