timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Dec, 2005 02:12 am
Hi, Neo ... OK if I hang out and watch a while?
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Dec, 2005 06:00 am
IMO. God is a concept, created by human beings, to explain the workings of the universe, that is not readily understood by human beings.

If something in the world is not understood, it is attributed to "God". The concept, in its essence, is the same in all religions, but each has developed a matrix of concepts, ceremonies and beliefs peculiar to their own particular history.
0 Replies
 
Jason Proudmoore
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Dec, 2005 06:41 am
I will try to explain it. But you seemed to have separated the entired paragraph and need explanation on the last part. Let me give you a word of advice: don't separate any word from this paragraph. "And" is a coordinating conjunction.

God (essential nature) is the unique, infinite personal spirit holy (moral nature), rightious, wise, and loving (purpose) who has created the existing universe and (activity) who is preparing souls for eternal fellowship with himself through their own free response (up to) to the error-on mental challenges and opportunities which He appoints.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Dec, 2005 09:43 am
Jason Proudmoore wrote:
He doesn't appoint challenges? You must have read a different Bible, neologist. Do I have to explain it?
Go right ahead; but take note of these:

"But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death." (James 1:14,15)

"Simon, Simon, look! Satan has demanded to have YOU men to sift YOU as wheat." (Luke 22:31)

"No temptation has taken YOU except what is common to men. But God is faithful, and he will not let YOU be tempted beyond what YOU can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out in order for YOU to be able to endure it." (1 Corinthians 10:13)
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Dec, 2005 09:45 am
timberlandko wrote:
Hi, Neo ... OK if I hang out and watch a while?
I would be delighted to hear your thoughts, my fine feathered freind. Smile
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Dec, 2005 09:46 am
neologist wrote:
husker wrote:
Quote:
A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions www.answers.com
Does omniscience mean God must, of necessity, know all things including the outcome of our lives?
husker wrote:
yes
Then, do we have free will?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Dec, 2005 09:54 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
IMO. God is a concept, created by human beings, to explain the workings of the universe, that is not readily understood by human beings.

If something in the world is not understood, it is attributed to "God". The concept, in its essence, is the same in all religions, but each has developed a matrix of concepts, ceremonies and beliefs peculiar to their own particular history.
Would you be willing to explain what your concept of the word 'God' means to you? You know, the part(s) you don't believe in.
0 Replies
 
Jason Proudmoore
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Dec, 2005 10:02 am
neologist wrote:
Jason Proudmoore wrote:
He doesn't appoint challenges? You must have read a different Bible, neologist. Do I have to explain it?
Go right ahead; but take note of these:

"But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death." (James 1:14,15)

"Simon, Simon, look! Satan has demanded to have YOU men to sift YOU as wheat." (Luke 22:31)

"No temptation has taken YOU except what is common to men. But God is faithful, and he will not let YOU be tempted beyond what YOU can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out in order for YOU to be able to endure it." (1 Corinthians 10:13)








Don't you think that we need to find the definition of "challenge" first in order to apply it to this argument? What makes a definition a good definition? Something that wouldn't contradict the logic of what is being defined. The definition of the word "table" isn't just an object with four legs. Lots of animals have four legs and aren't tables. "Table" is an object of four legs that is used to put other objects on it. That isn't a right definiton either, because there are other objects with four legs that you can put thins on them. But haven't we talked about the contradictions of the bible? I don't think your passages make good argument. Give me something concrete.
0 Replies
 
Jason Proudmoore
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Dec, 2005 10:12 am
Actually, the concept of "god" or "gods" was created
in the pre-milesian era by a poet name Hesiod (750-700BC). Wrote "works and Days." And gave account of religion myths (derived from imagination). Theogony: myth of creation. Hesiod gave anthropomorphic (human-like) gods:

Apolo: Sun-god
Poseidon: ruler of the seas
Dionysius: god of wine, partying
Aphrodite: god of love
etc.
This homeric character was the one who provided the building blocks for moder religions.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Dec, 2005 12:30 pm
Jason Proudmoore wrote:
Don't you think that we need to find the definition of "challenge" first in order to apply it to this argument? What makes a definition a good definition? Something that wouldn't contradict the logic of what is being defined. The definition of the word "table" isn't just an object with four legs. Lots of animals have four legs and aren't tables. "Table" is an object of four legs that is used to put other objects on it. That isn't a right definiton either, because there are other objects with four legs that you can put thins on them. But haven't we talked about the contradictions of the bible? I don't think your passages make good argument. Give me something concrete.
OK, God gave humans two 'challenges' or commands:
First, in Genesis 1:26: "Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth."
Next in Genesis 2: 16, he commanded : "From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die."
All the religious confusion and human misery of the world derives from the rebellion which came next. Those 'challenges', if you must call them challenges, came from the misuse of the gift of free will by Satan and his human conscripts.
It follows that if the story is true and if they had not sinned, they would still be here and we would have no war or crime or sickness or death.
Jason Proudmoore wrote:
Actually, the concept of "god" or "gods" was created
in the pre-milesian era by a poet name Hesiod (750-700BC). Wrote "works and Days." And gave account of religion myths (derived from imagination). Theogony: myth of creation. Hesiod gave anthropomorphic (human-like) gods:

Apolo: Sun-god
Poseidon: ruler of the seas
Dionysius: god of wine, partying
Aphrodite: god of love
etc.
This homeric character was the one who provided the building blocks for moder religions.
This is interesting information, Jason. Thank you. What I am looking for is a description of the qualities, or nature, of God.
For example, The name Jehovah means 'he who causes to become'. Does this mean he is not subject to our understanding of causality? What would be the consequences of that understanding, if true?
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Dec, 2005 03:57 pm
neologist wrote:
Would you be willing to explain what your concept of the word 'God' means to you? You know, the part(s) you don't believe in.



Actually, the concept of a God does not mean anything to me, personally. It is only because of the impact of of other people who believe in a God, that I think about it at all.

I am a person who runs her life based on reason and logic. The concept of God is based on faith. I cannot accept anything based on faith alone.

Is there a God? I really don't know. Even if there were one, it would not change my life one bit.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Dec, 2005 08:44 pm
Hi Phoenix;

Are you simply saying that if there is an organizing force in the universe, it does not have personality or intent?

Or, are you saying there is no organizing force?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Dec, 2005 09:39 pm
Answers from a previous thread.

I never got a chance to tally all that was collected on that thead. One of these days...
0 Replies
 
non-denom christian
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Dec, 2005 10:51 pm
God is:
Creator Gen 1:1
Gardener Gen 2:8
Generous Giver Gen 2:8-18
Father Gen 3:3-23
All Knowing Gen 3:5
Companion Deut 31:6
Most High Gen 14:18
Lord Gen 15:2
Almighty Gen 17:1
Healer Gen 20:17
Honest Gen 21:2
Just Gen 21:20
Judge Gen 30:2
Protector Gen 31:7
Gracious Gen 33:11
Listener Gen 35:15
Life Saver Gen 45:5
Strength Gen 49:24
Helper Gen 49:25
Forgiver Gen 50:17
Respectful Ex 2:25
I AM THAT I AM ex 3:14
Most High Ex 12:12
Salvation Ex 15:2
Holy Ex 15:11
Jealous Ex 20:5
Author Deut 9:10
Teacher Ex 29:45-46
Wisdom Ex 31:3
Understanding Ex 31:3
Knowledge Ex 31:3
Longsuffering Ex 34:6
Truth Ex 34:6
Merciful Ex 34:6
Good Ex 34:6
Savior Num 10:9
Freedom Num 15:41
Spirit of all flesh Num 17:16
Leader Deut 8:2
Warrior Deut 3:22
Destroyer of the wicked Deut 4:3
Attainable/ available Deut 4:29
Commander Deut 6:24
Deliverer Deut 7:2
Consuming fire Deut 9:3
Redeemer Deut 9:26
Requirer Deut 9:12
God of Gods Deut 10:17
Lord of Lords Deut 10:17
Great Deut 10:17
Mighty Deut 10:17
Terrible Deut 10:17
Giver Deut 12:10-11
Revealer Deut 29:29
the Rock Deut 32:4
Perfect Deut 32:4
Right Deut 32:4
Eternal Deut 33:27
Refuge Deut 33:27
in heaven above Josh 2:11
in earth beneath Josh 2:11
among you Josh 3:10
Living Josh 3:10
of Isreal Josh 7:13
Counselor Judg 20:18
with thee 1 Sam 10:7
God of hosts 2 Sam 5:10
over Isreal 2 Sam 7:26
Wise 2 Sam 14:20
my Shield 2 Sam 22:3
Power 2 Sam 22:33
the only true God, and Jesus Christ John 17:3
Love Jude 1:21
Alpha Rev 1:8
Omega Rev 1:8
the Beginning Rev 1:8
the Ending Rev 1:8
the first Rev 1:11
the last Rev 1:11
he that liveth, and was dead Rev 1:18
clear as crystal Rev 21:11
a pure river Rev 22:1
water of life Rev 22:1
Light Rev 21:23
of the Lamb Rev 21:23

As you can see, these things are from God's word, the Holy Bible. I would not venture to spread any misleading gossip of who or what God Is, by telling you something that a human who was not inspired by God himself wrote.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Dec, 2005 11:36 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
Answers from a previous thread.

I never got a chance to tally all that was collected on that thead. One of these days...
Thanks for the link, ros. I'd totally forgotten about that thread. I even posted on it. I've reviewed about half of it.

One thing I noticed is that folks are describing God in what seem to be nebulous terms. Even non-dc, in his post above, while he gives much to contemplate, hasn't focused on some of the real issues.

What I am looking for are answers to questions like these:

Is God the first cause?
Did he exist before the first event? If so, how may that be explained? Does he somehow transcend time?

If God is omniscient, is he bound to know all things or is he capable of selective foreknowledge?
If he knows all things in advance, do we have free will or are we completely determined?

If God is all powerful (and all loving), is there an explanation for why he permits evil and human suffering?

You don't have to be a believer to have an opinion about the concept of God. Your opinion may be directly related to your disbelief. In other words, You may not believe in God because you can't imagine how any God would allow the slaughter of innocents.
0 Replies
 
non-denom christian
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 12:10 am
Well most of that I can't help you with, since I am only given the wisdom that God knows I can handle.

I can however help you on the permitting human suffering, 'course you might not like the truth...

Suffering will continue untill all God's people have heard the Gospel of Christ. God is waiting patiently for his word to be spread to every person who can possibly be saved.

To understand this, you must understand free will and it's consequences. You must understand sin as the root of all evil. You must also understand the wages of sin is death. You must understand we are all sinners. You must understand that we must die to our mortal self so that our spiritual self can live.

Once a person in saved in the spirit, we understand that pain and suffering can be a blessing. That probably sounds cracked, it's hard to explain. I just know that through all the pain and suffering I've lived through, in hind-sight, it has made me a better person.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 11:10 am
non-denom christian wrote:
Well most of that I can't help you with, since I am only given the wisdom that God knows I can handle.

I can however help you on the permitting human suffering, 'course you might not like the truth...

Suffering will continue untill all God's people have heard the Gospel of Christ. God is waiting patiently for his word to be spread to every person who can possibly be saved.

To understand this, you must understand free will and it's consequences. You must understand sin as the root of all evil. You must also understand the wages of sin is death. You must understand we are all sinners. You must understand that we must die to our mortal self so that our spiritual self can live.

Once a person in saved in the spirit, we understand that pain and suffering can be a blessing. That probably sounds cracked, it's hard to explain. I just know that through all the pain and suffering I've lived through, in hind-sight, it has made me a better person.
Thanks for your response vis a vis human suffering. Anyone care to comment?

You have also brought up the concept of free will. How do you think it fits in with God's reputed quality of foreknowledge? Do you think it is the same as the conventional definition of omniscient? If God is omniscient, how would you explain free will? I believe there are scriptural answers, if you want to use the bible; or you could simply speculate as many a2kers do.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 07:42 pm
neologist wrote:
Hi Phoenix;

Are you simply saying that if there is an organizing force in the universe, it does not have personality or intent?

Or, are you saying there is no organizing force?


I really don't know, for sure. From what humans know of the universe, I would venture a guess that evolution is the organizing force. I have no inkling if there is any intent, or personality.

One thing that I would suspect is that there is no creator who rewards or punishes individuals according to whether these people worship this creator or not. The whole idea makes absolutely no logical sense to me. In addition, there is not a bit of evidence, other than the fantastic tales told by primitive peoples, that such a creator even exists.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 08:33 pm
Hi Phoenix;
Your reply about reward/punishment makes sense. Many christians have such a view of God.

I never considered that evolution would be used to explain universal origins. I thought natural law might be a viable and more inclusive term. I wonder if farmer will add something here when he returns.

Thanks for your input.

Anyone care to take a stab at free will vs. determinism?
0 Replies
 
non-denom christian
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 09:25 pm
I understand that God knows everything. He knows our thought before we do. Free will is the cause not the reason. God can jump in and change what ever he wants any time he wants, but he has reasons for letting life go on as we would have it.

On the topic of logic, not to dis you Phoenix, just want to let you know that things would be a lot more logical to you if you were directed by the holy spirit. It's the only way to even begin to understand life and our existence. Here's hoping you find what your looking for.
0 Replies
 
 

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