echi
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 10:32 pm
neologist


I posted this idea about determinism/free will earlier (too lazy to think it through again)

Quote:
The state of things, I believe, is certain. Only one "outcome" is possible. What is uncertain (incomplete) is our knowledge. We affect what we observe (and vice versa). The cosmos is deterministic, but we cannot see the complete picture because every part of what we are is part of that picture. Maybe that has something to do with our experience of free will. I don't know.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 10:53 pm
non-denom christian wrote:
I understand that God knows everything. He knows our thought before we do. Free will is the cause not the reason. God can jump in and change what ever he wants any time he wants, but he has reasons for letting life go on as we would have it.

On the topic of logic, not to dis you Phoenix, just want to let you know that things would be a lot more logical to you if you were directed by the holy spirit. It's the only way to even begin to understand life and our existence. Here's hoping you find what your looking for.
I believe you are saying God's capacity to know all is selective. I would agree.

I don't quite understand the phrase 'free will is the cause not the reason.' What do you mean by that?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 10:59 pm
echi wrote:
neologist


I posted this idea about determinism/free will earlier (too lazy to think it through again)

Quote:
The state of things, I believe, is certain. Only one "outcome" is possible. What is uncertain (incomplete) is our knowledge. We affect what we observe (and vice versa). The cosmos is deterministic, but we cannot see the complete picture because every part of what we are is part of that picture. Maybe that has something to do with our experience of free will. I don't know.
It has been said that determinism is predestination without religion. Either concept is incompatible with free will. As Martin said:
Martin Luther wrote:
God foresees, foreordains, and accomplishes all things by an unchanging, eternal, and effacious will. By this thunderbolt free will sinks shattered in the dust.
What say you?
0 Replies
 
Jason Proudmoore
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 11:04 pm
I've got an interesting notion about the question of free will, if we have free will or not. I will post it much later, probably when I have more time. I can't do it at the moment because I have tons of work from school, and finals are coming up. And remember, keep bringing joy and doing what's right to you and others
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 11:23 pm
Quote:
Martin Luther wrote:
God foresees, foreordains, and accomplishes all things by an unchanging, eternal, and effacious will. By this thunderbolt free will sinks shattered in the dust.
What say you?


Well, neologist, I say that sounds about right. BUT, our moment to moment experience seems to shatter determinism right back.
I definitely think the world is deterministic, and I think you and I agree on what that means. All I'm sayin' is that whatever "free will" is, it's got to fit in there somehow. Reason tells me that we are not (or at least I'm not) all that close to understanding how it fits in, or what our experience of "free will" really is.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 11:28 pm
We could be at the core of our premises.
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 11:32 pm
So, now what?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 11:38 pm
If the concept of free will is such that it trumps predestination and determinism, as I believe, we should be able to articulate how it fits into our concept of God.

Wanna take a shot?
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2005 11:44 pm
neologist

Uh-oh. You think free will trumps determinism? I am not on that page.
I don't think we can discredit either concept. My hope is that by better understanding both sides, they will somehow support each other.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 02:33 am
OK, can you articulate that? How would that work out?
0 Replies
 
queen annie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 03:37 am
can be defined as:

1. The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action.
2. Diligent purposefulness; determination; desire, purpose, or deliberate intention or wish.
3. Self-control; self-discipline.

is variously defined as:

1. Not imprisoned or enslaved; not subject to external restraint.
2. Not controlled by obligation or the will of another.
3. Not subject to arbitrary interference by a government or to a given condition.
4. Not affected or restricted by a given condition or circumstance.



0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 05:46 am
non-denom christian wrote:

On the topic of logic, not to dis you Phoenix, just want to let you know that things would be a lot more logical to you if you were directed by the holy spirit. It's the only way to even begin to understand life and our existence. Here's hoping you find what your looking for.


First, let me say that I have found what I am looking for, probably many years before most of the people on A2K were born. Not wanting to dis YOU, non-denom, I think that it is naive at best to believe that logic can emerge from faith. By definition faith is:

Quote:
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.


Sorry non-denom, IMO one cannot produce logic from a premise that is illogical, no matter how much that the person desires it.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 08:30 am
I came across an unusual view of God in reading about Germany in the seventeenth century. Everyone probably knows that many Protestant writers of the seventeenth century were German. One of them, Jakob Boehme, proposed a novel characterization of God as an inconceivable essence, an "Abyss".
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 09:50 am
Hi queenie; Welcome to a2k. I'm sure you will have fun here. Laughing
Thank you for your well thought out post.

Just to clarify: Are we totally devoid of free will or simply limited by natural laws?

I would agree that our free will to jump off the Space Needle is tempered by the necessity of accepting the consequences. Additionally, were we to try to leap from the ground to the top of the Needle, a decidedly less dangerous option, our free will would be limited once again by that nasty old gravity.

Unless we used parachutes or rocket packs, that is.

You seem to agree with echi in some respects. But let me ask this:

From your own perspective, was there some event or series of events in the past that now determines your lifestyle and moral choices?

Oh, and hi, wandel; I would agree that contemplating God is like contemplating an abyss. Is there anything we may learn from observing the boundary?
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 10:03 am
neologist,

I am not an expert on the seventeenth century writer that I posted about. To me it seems that many religious writers have expressed the idea that human beings do not have the ability to conceive the true essence of God.
0 Replies
 
queen annie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 10:22 am
neologist wrote:
Hi queenie; Welcome to a2k. I'm sure you will have fun here. Laughing
Thank you for your well thought out post.
Thank you.

Quote:
Just to clarify: Are we totally devoid of free will or simply limited by natural laws?

We are not only limited by natural laws, but circumstances created by self and others--both material and abstract. The latter seems to be, from my POV, often the more steadfast barrier.

Quote:
Unless we used parachutes or rocket packs, that is.

And yet, still limits there--available of jet fuel, favorable air currents, etc...

Quote:
From your own perspective, was there some event or series of events in the past that now determines your lifestyle and moral choices?

No doubt. There has always been such...
First it was birth and the limits of an infantile mind. (which is not completely overcome, hee hee)
In more recent years there was a series of events that wrought a profound change--an abstract change initiated by material events. Natural limitations of personal circumstances had a surprising effect toward freeing my mind of many things I did not even realize I was bound by.
I think the most significant change came about not in my lifestyle; which did change quite a bit, but not even near to the degree that my thoughts and perspective did. I process the world and myself in a completely different way. The result also caused the natural law's inhibiting factor to bring me far less distress--still there, just not as powerful in its effects upon my inner state of being.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 10:28 am
wandeljw wrote:
neologist,

I am not an expert on the seventeenth century writer that I posted about. To me it seems that many religious writers have expressed the idea that human beings do not have the ability to conceive the true essence of God.
OK, well, what comes to your mind when someone mentions the word god?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 10:35 am
Queenie, are you saying that when it comes to moral alternatives you are not free?
0 Replies
 
queen annie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 11:57 am
neologist wrote:
Queenie, are you saying that when it comes to moral alternatives you are not free?

Not at all--as far as morality goes, I don't really even have what one might call a 'set of morals'. When I say 'morality' I specifically mean as is defined:

1: concern with the distinction between good and evil or right and wrong; right or good conduct
2: motivation based on ideas of right and wrong

The 'distinction between good and evil or right and wrong' is something that has faded in my view. Not that I am undisciplined in my choices or wantonly oblivious in my daily life--I am more disciplined that I ever thought I could be, and very aware of the feelings my actions and words invoke in those around me.

I think I am free almost beyond the idea of morals, altogether. To not feel I must do something because it is 'right' or because it is 'good' -- in whose eyes is it good? that's the inherent flaw in morality -- but to do something because I feel it is what I must do because I must, that kind of 'must' is not the obligation that 'because it is the right thing to do' is.

Not that I'm saying morality is not crucial for our development--it is--it moderates the effects of 'self-orientation' as we (hopefully) 'grow out of it.'

What was it Einstein said? 'Morality is of supreme importance, but to humans, not God.' Something like that.

Morality is subjective and relative, and so there is a possible vantage point in our respective journeys, that lie beyond its jurisdiction.

(in case you haven't realized, I have a dictionary fetish--a penchant for precise vocabulary--just like Confucious is said to have admitted to) :wink:
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 12:05 pm
What is your take on the Edenic 'choice' offered by Satan? Did Adam and Eve really have a choice?
0 Replies
 
 

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