cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 04:06 pm
@Cyracuz,
The numbers who believe the character Superman as real today will eventually die down to zero rather than your way - in a couple of hundred years!

"Faster than a speeding bullet" will be the death knell.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 04:14 pm
@spendius,
I'm sure I like you, spendi. But usually you are way over my head
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 04:21 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Getting back to the subject of prayer.

If you present a case to a magistrate in the US, the doctrine of clean hands applies. Similarly with the supreme magistrate. Both sides pray for victory in battle. Whatever the answer, it is not from Jehovah.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 04:49 pm
@neologist,
That also happens at sports events. Both teams pray; which side does god choose? Toss a coin.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 04:51 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:


Nah, he understandably had to slap the primitive heathens around to gain their respect..Smile



Right! Take a look at these.

“If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” Leviticus 20-13


"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL SLAVES. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen."
Leviticus 25:44ff

"If a man has a stubborn and unruly son who will not listen to
his father or mother, and will not obey them even though they
chastise him, his father and mother shall have him apprehended
and brought out to the elders at the gate of his home city, where
...his fellow citizens shall stone him to death."

Deuteronomy 22:18ff

"When you march up to attack a city, first offer terms of peace.
If it agrees to your terms of peace and opens its gates to you,
all the people to be found in it shall serve you in forced labor.
But if it refuses to make peace with you and instead offers you
battle, lay siege to it, and when the Lord, your God, delivers it
into your hand, put every male in it to the sword, but the women
and children and livestock and all else in it that is worth
plunder you may take as your booty and you may use this plunder
of your enemies which the Lord, your God, has given you."

Deuteronomy 20:10

"I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments
for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate
me, down to the third and fourth generation."

Deuteronomy 5:9

"Therefore, he who has any of the following defects may not come
forward: he who is blind, or lame, or who has any disfigurement
or malformation, or crippled foot or hand....he may not approach
the veil nor go up to the altar on account of these defects; he
shall not profane these things that are sacred to me, for it is
I, the Lord, who make them sacred."

Leviticus 21:18ff

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
[2 Chronicles 15:12-13]


If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.
[Deuteronomy 13:7-12]


Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."
[Deuteronomy 13:13-19]


The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.'
[Exodus 31:12-15]



One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. [Leviticus 24:10-16]


For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
[Matthew 15:4-7]

"I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments
for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate
me, down to the third and fourth generation."

Deuteronomy 5:9

What a beauty this monster is!
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 04:53 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
That also happens at sports events. Both teams pray; which side does god choose? Toss a coin.


Nah. It's the team that prays hardest.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 05:13 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
“If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” Leviticus 20-13


Maybe they thought that if it caught on they would be done for and become extinct.

Quote:
"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL SLAVES. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen."
Leviticus 25:44ff


The Constitution legitimised the very same thing.

Quote:
"If a man has a stubborn and unruly son who will not listen to
his father or mother, and will not obey them even though they
chastise him, his father and mother shall have him apprehended
and brought out to the elders at the gate of his home city, where
...his fellow citizens shall stone him to death."
Deuteronomy 22:18ff


My father used to say that he would saw my leg off.

Quote:
"When you march up to attack a city, first offer terms of peace.
If it agrees to your terms of peace and opens its gates to you,
all the people to be found in it shall serve you in forced labor.
But if it refuses to make peace with you and instead offers you
battle, lay siege to it, and when the Lord, your God, delivers it
into your hand, put every male in it to the sword, but the women
and children and livestock and all else in it that is worth
plunder you may take as your booty and you may use this plunder
of your enemies which the Lord, your God, has given you."
Deuteronomy 20:10


Which still goes on to this day. It is only toned down because we can afford it to be. It gives the chattering classes something to sanctimoniously witter about. (see JTT).

Quote:

"I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments
for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate
me, down to the third and fourth generation."
Deuteronomy 5:9


Highest incarceration rates ever known in the USA.

Quote:
"Therefore, he who has any of the following defects may not come
forward: he who is blind, or lame, or who has any disfigurement
or malformation, or crippled foot or hand....he may not approach
the veil nor go up to the altar on account of these defects; he
shall not profane these things that are sacred to me, for it is
I, the Lord, who make them sacred."
Leviticus 21:18ff


They could not afford our welfare provisions. Are you an evolutionist or a pretty boy simpering with human compassion?

Quote:
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
[2 Chronicles 15:12-13]


Dissenters were dangerous in marginal living conditions.

Quote:
What a beauty this monster is!


Who said It wasn't?

Do you sing in the choir at the Sisters of Mercy's mission house?

Romeo Fabulini
 
  0  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 05:51 pm
Frank Apisa quoted 12 tough OT verses plus this one spoken by Jesus:
Quote:
"For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
[Matthew 15:4-7]"
What a beauty this monster is!

Nice try mate, but no..Wink
Firstly, the 12 Old T verses are just that - Old T - and were trashed by Jesus in the NEW T (the clue is in the name)
Secondly Jesus simply quoted the verse to prove a point against the snooty priests during a conversation with them.

But come to think of it, why shouldn't anybody who treats their parents bad get their asses busted?
Remember the scene in 'A Man Called Horse' where the indians banish an old woman tribal member to die in a blizzard because they regarded her as a useless mouth to feed? It wasn't fiction, it was practised by more than one tribe of Native Americans!
No wonder the Pilgrim Fathers had to go over there to civilise them..Smile

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/arrival3.gif~original
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 06:30 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
So, you're saying anybody can interpret the bible as they see fit - to meet their own comfort level. LOL

Since all the words were spoken during jesus' time on earth, what applies back then and now can be interpreted either way.

It's no wonder that theologians had difficulty in their interpretations too!

The word of god can be confusing - or ridiculous. It depends on the perceiver.

Romeo Fabulini
 
  0  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 06:39 pm
Cicerone Imposter said:
Quote:
@Romeo Fabulini,
So, you're saying anybody can interpret the bible as they see fit - to meet their own comfort level. LOL

Firstly, a simple slimline gospel like this one is all we need, it only costs a few pence and can be read in a couple of days and is written in simple plain language that anybody can understand, it needs no "interpretation"..Smile
It's only control-freak "spiritual snobs" who say you have to study and learn the whole bible from cover to cover!

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/gospel.gif~original
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 06:47 pm
@cicerone imposter,
It's really frustrating when believers present such convincing repudiations of God's word. They do more harm than the most vehement atheist.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 06:56 pm
@neologist,
"Whoever believeth in me shall have everlasting life." Now, there's a phrase full of promises that nobody can confirm. Where does this mystical god reside? Everywhere? Nowhere?

The only logical conclusion is "no where."
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 07:33 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
"Whoever believeth in me shall have everlasting life." Now, there's a phrase full of promises that nobody can confirm. Where does this mystical god reside? Everywhere? Nowhere?

The only logical conclusion is "no where."
But it is a continuation of the promise given Adam and Eve. In fact, the entire Bible is focused on God's purpose to have the earth inhabited by mankind.
Not a bad deal, actually.
It might make sense to dig a little deeper.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 07:43 pm
@neologist,
Eating an apple can't possibly be the "sin." If sex is the sin, then god made man in his own image with a penis. Where does god get his "sexual" satisfaction? If he doesn't require sex to have a son, why did he make man and woman require sex to have children?

Aging and death has to be the natural outcome of sex and procreation. This planet isn't big enough to survive the accumulation of animals (and man) on this limited resourced planet.

Climate change will probably destroy all life as we know it on this planet anywhose.

Rather than an ice age, it's going to become a fireball and explode.
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 07:55 pm
@neologist,
I repeat.
mesquite wrote:
No Neo, instinct doesn't cut it for this tale. I know you are fond of your supposition that Adam and Eve were created with a perfect conscience, but this tale makes it clear they were not. In this tale eating magical fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil was required to give the pair a functional conscience.

neologist wrote:
Skeeter, Frank, Romulans, Countrymen;
What makes a good athlete? He/she practices until the moves come automatically.
Like instinct.
A2d how does your conscience work?

Keep going . . . .

What part of automatically did I fail to communicate?

Is that like . . .

Instinct?

Nothing you have said addresses my statement.

In your opinion, what effect did eating the fruit have on Adam and Eve? By that I do NOT mean the consequences imposed upon them by the dude with the bad temper.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 08:00 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Eating an apple can't possibly be the "sin." If sex is the sin, then god made man in his own image with a penis. Where does god get his "sexual" satisfaction? If he doesn't require sex to have a son, why did he make man and woman require sex to have children?
Where did you get the idea of an apple? Eating the fruit was a sin because of what the act represented, namely choosing to reject God's authority and take upon themselves the knowledge of good and bad. We are in God's image, not physically, but by our attributes of love, justice, wisdom, and free will.
cicerone imposter wrote:
Aging and death has to be the natural outcome of sex and procreation. This planet isn't big enough to survive the accumulation of animals (and man) on this limited resourced planet.
True, except for reason . . .
If you tell the waiter to fill your coffee cup, would you correctly expect him to continue pouring until he soaked the table top and perhaps filled your shoes?
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 08:06 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
It's pretty well established that Moses compiled his writings in the 16th Century BC. Beyond this point, I must admit complete ignorance of whatever point you are trying to make.

I don't think that is very well established at all. Do you have any references?
Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah
Today the majority of academic scholars accept the theory that the Torah does not have a single author, and that its composition took place over centuries.[20] From the late 19th century there was a general consensus around the documentary hypothesis, which suggests that the five books were created c. 450 BCE by combining four originally independent sources, known as the Jahwist, or J (c. 900 BCE), the Elohist, or E (c. 800 BCE), the Deuteronomist, or D, (c. 600 BCE), and the Priestly source, or P (c. 500 BCE).[21]

This general agreement began to break down in the late 1970s, and today there are many theories but no consensus, or even majority viewpoint.[22] Variations of the documentary hypothesis remain popular, especially in the United States of America and Israel, and the identification of distinctive Deuteronomistic and Priestly theologies and vocabularies remains widespread, but they are used to form new approaches suggesting that the books were combined gradually over time by the slow accumulation of "fragments" of text, or that a basic text was "supplemented" by later authors/editors.[23] At the same time there has been a tendency to bring the origins of the Pentateuch further forward in time, and the most recent proposals place it in 5th century BCE Judah under the Persian empire.[24][25]

Deuteronomy is often treated separately from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers. The process of its formation probably took several hundred years, from the 8th to the 6th century BCE,[26] and its authors have been variously identified as prophetic circles (because the concerns of Deuteronomy mirror those of the prophets, especially Hosea), Levitical priestly circles (because it stresses the role of the Levites), and wisdom and scribal circles (because it esteems wisdom, and because the treaty-form in which it is written would be best known to scribes).[27] According to the Deuteronomistic history proposed by Martin Noth and widely accepted, Deuteronomy was a product of the court of Josiah [28] (late 7th century BCE) before being used as the introduction to a comprehensive history of Israel written in the early part of the 6th century BCE; later still it was detached from the history and used to round off the Pentateuch.[29]
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 08:16 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
The numbers who believe the character Superman as real today will eventually die down to zero rather than your way - in a couple of hundred years!


What if there is a cataclysm, and the new civilization that rises from the ahses uncovers the tales of Superman at precisely the right time? Some leader might decide to use the tale to inspire his people, and then, a few hundred years later, people are waiting for the return of Superman. Some believe in him, and worship him, while others figure that such a fantastical tale must surely be a flight of fancy.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 08:24 pm
@neologist,
If god's authority is based on some foolish rules about eating one fruit over another, and it does no harm to anybody else, it's a stupid rule! Especially to penalize all of mankind for it.

Are christians allowed to eat fruit today? God's rules and conflicting messages are stupid and unwarranted when the penalty is greater than any "sin" that's based on god's judgement. All it proves is that he is not a fair and loving god. He's a stupid god, knowing full well they will eat the apple. Satan had nothing to do with it! It's god's law they broke.

If that's "free will," god knows nothing about human nature.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 11:31 pm
@mesquite,
mesquite wrote:
. . . In your opinion, what effect did eating the fruit have on Adam and Eve? By that I do NOT mean the consequences imposed upon them by the dude with the bad temper.
IMO, the consequence of disobedience and violating their innate conscience cost them not only their moral perfection but their physical perfection as well. As a result, all of their descendants have inherited their nature. This is the reason Jesus' sacrifice was necessary, for if a perfect man sinned, only another perfect man could take his place. BTW, all this was foretold at Genesis 3:15
 

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