cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 01:41 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Until we really know if "sin" was "created" when adam and eve ate the apple, the rest of the bible belongs on Saturday night live.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 02:00 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
This is just another example of how laughable your assertions are, Frank.


It is not laughable neo. It is pitiful. You ought to sympathise.

The most important principle of the progressive education is that no child should feel a failure as many do under the academic and scholastic systems. The child is to be manipulated into feeling good about himself and being prepared for a life in the midst of others educated in a similar fashion. Life adjustment was the label it often went under.

Essentially it represented a rejection of the European model. It focused on the backward child which, in a truly democratic system, is the equal of the bright child and in need of more empathetic attention. He was to do "sums" and call it "maths" for example. He was to "graduate" from school rather than just "leave". He majored in subjects he knew little or nothing about. It was all rigged in the form of chucks under the chin with the objective of making the little illiterate monster feel as if he had emerged from a German university with high honours. By the tens of millions.

The most expensive "public" school in the UK is Someville and the progressive system is in an extreme form there. The students can do what they want as long as it's legal I gather. They are being adjusted to life as a rich person because that is what they would become. The parents had to send their kids to school under the law and they wanted them off their hands anyway but they also preferred them to not be troubled by anything they didn't want to be troubled by. Basically child minding. The thought of their little darlings being rapped over the knuckles with a 12" ruler for failing to do their Latin homework was something they couldn't bear to contemplate.

The trouble is that life in reality is not at all like the life the soppy teachers had in mind and thus the assertion is needed, yes needed, to plug the yawning gap that looms up as soon as life on the street is ventured into. The rich kids of Somerville are not going to have that problem except possible in relation to the opposite sex but most of their wives will be so pleased to have landed the job that even then the assertion will be fact as well as everywhere else where money talks.

The only fear I detect on here is Apisa's utter dread of being wrong and of being thought a failure and he can never be either if the assertion is a fact in his own mind thus protecting his self-esteem.

If God appears in our midst to reveal himself and his plan and explains it all on TV an atheist would be wrong. On the other hand if Science proved God did not exist and explained it all on TV a believer would be wrong.

Not wishing to risk being wrong, which is absolutely mortifying for the products of progressive schools, agnosticism is the obvious solution.

So I understand the condition but have more sympathy for the companions of progressively educated persons than I do for them.

Have you ever seen the education scene in Amarcord? That's all metaphor and all the more amusing for it.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 02:05 pm
@spendius,
Here's a good example, neo, of the state one might easily get into--

Quote:
because my fortunes are based upon me being an instrument of production. (That's why I found teaching best suited for losers)


It was posted today on another thread.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 02:20 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
My guess is that you do not know what consequences or non-consequences arise out of whatever happens to be the REALITY. There may be all sorts of punishment for "disbelief"...and the "consequences" for one may be quite different from the "consequences" for another.
You know my point of view is that of the naive realist. What I perceive is what is there. When I know of someone who has died, I 'know' that person is dead, unconscious, and unaware. I have no qualms about such things as cremation. The possibility of "all sorts of punishments", ones not mentioned by God in the Genesis account, does not come to mind.
Frank Apisa wrote:
In any case, the story of Adam and Eve in the Bible is about a couple who do not know good from bad or good from evil; are being denied that knowledge; and then are punished b y the absurd god because they did "something bad" or "something evil.
This is another area where your perception does not make sense. What motive would God have for creating humans simply to blindside them with an impossible command?
Frank Apisa wrote:
It is an absurd story...that you previously claimed was an allegory.

Wanna tell us now what the allegory is?
Actually, I did not claim it was or is an allegory. I simply stated that it could be viewed as an allegory by one who chose not to believe
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 02:22 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Until we really know if "sin" was "created" when adam and eve ate the apple, the rest of the bible belongs on Saturday night live.
The first sin was Satan's
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 02:24 pm
@Herald,
Herald wrote:
. . . What I understand of life and death is a little bit different from the general claims of the church. Anyway.
Noted. Yet I, for one, have no idea what these are. Could you explain?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 02:32 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Quote:
This is just another example of how laughable your assertions are, Frank.


It is not laughable neo. It is pitiful. You ought to sympathise.

The most important principle of the progressive education is that no child should feel a failure as many do under the academic and scholastic systems. The child is to be manipulated into feeling good about himself and being prepared for a life in the midst of others educated in a similar fashion. Life adjustment was the label it often went under.

Essentially it represented a rejection of the European model. It focused on the backward child which, in a truly democratic system, is the equal of the bright child and in need of more empathetic attention. He was to do "sums" and call it "maths" for example. He was to "graduate" from school rather than just "leave". He majored in subjects he knew little or nothing about. It was all rigged in the form of chucks under the chin with the objective of making the little illiterate monster feel as if he had emerged from a German university with high honours. By the tens of millions.

The most expensive "public" school in the UK is Someville and the progressive system is in an extreme form there. The students can do what they want as long as it's legal I gather. They are being adjusted to life as a rich person because that is what they would become. The parents had to send their kids to school under the law and they wanted them off their hands anyway but they also preferred them to not be troubled by anything they didn't want to be troubled by. Basically child minding. The thought of their little darlings being rapped over the knuckles with a 12" ruler for failing to do their Latin homework was something they couldn't bear to contemplate.

The trouble is that life in reality is not at all like the life the soppy teachers had in mind and thus the assertion is needed, yes needed, to plug the yawning gap that looms up as soon as life on the street is ventured into. The rich kids of Somerville are not going to have that problem except possible in relation to the opposite sex but most of their wives will be so pleased to have landed the job that even then the assertion will be fact as well as everywhere else where money talks.

The only fear I detect on here is Apisa's utter dread of being wrong and of being thought a failure and he can never be either if the assertion is a fact in his own mind thus protecting his self-esteem.

If God appears in our midst to reveal himself and his plan and explains it all on TV an atheist would be wrong. On the other hand if Science proved God did not exist and explained it all on TV a believer would be wrong.

Not wishing to risk being wrong, which is absolutely mortifying for the products of progressive schools, agnosticism is the obvious solution.

So I understand the condition but have more sympathy for the companions of progressively educated persons than I do for them.

Have you ever seen the education scene in Amarcord? That's all metaphor and all the more amusing for it.


Once again, I thank you for your comments. They do little in the way of being informative...but, Spendius, they are entertaining as Abbott and Costello.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 02:39 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
My guess is that you do not know what consequences or non-consequences arise out of whatever happens to be the REALITY. There may be all sorts of punishment for "disbelief"...and the "consequences" for one may be quite different from the "consequences" for another.


You know my point of view is that of the naive realist. What I perceive is what is there. When I know of someone who has died, I 'know' that person is dead, unconscious, and unaware. I have no qualms about such things as cremation. The possibility of "all sorts of punishments", ones not mentioned by God in the Genesis account, does not come to mind.


Ahhh...but you were asserting you knew what happens...and I am suggesting that you are merely guessing.

You pretty much are agreeing with me that you are guessing...so we one here, Neo.

Quote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
In any case, the story of Adam and Eve in the Bible is about a couple who do not know good from bad or good from evil; are being denied that knowledge; and then are punished b y the absurd god because they did "something bad" or "something evil.
This is another area where your perception does not make sense. What motive would God have for creating humans simply to blindside them with an impossible command?


I suspect it is not a god at work here...but an ancient Hebrew who is trying to explain something virtually unexplainable...and he screwed up big time. The story IS about a couple who do not know the difference between right and wrong...and a god who punishes them for doing something wrong.

Don't try to explain it to yourself as "what motive would GOD have"...but rather, "what motive would a guy inventing a god have."

Then it makes sense.

Quote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
It is an absurd story...that you previously claimed was an allegory.

Wanna tell us now what the allegory is?
Actually, I did not claim it was or is an allegory. I simply stated that it could be viewed as an allegory by one who chose not to believe


I think you did say it was an allegory, but I will accept your assertion that you did not say that exactly.

I fail, however, to see the allegory...unless the allegory involves a god willing to set up a couple for certain failure...without the defense of knowing right from wrong...and then severely punishing them and all the rest of humankind for doing what the god considered wrong.

The story is simpleminded, Neo.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 02:44 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
The story is simpleminded, Neo.
I've always said the Bible was not written for the intelligentsia. I guess you are just too smart, Frank.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 02:48 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
The story is simpleminded, Neo.
I've always said the Bible was not written for the intelligentsia. I guess you are just too smart, Frank.


Cute remark...and one designed to get away from the implications of what has been discussed, Neo.

The story is a joke...it is simpleminded. It does not really teach a lesson about obedience...or about the primacy of the god.

It teaches anyone who really looks at the story that the god is willing to be duplicitous and deceptive...and has no qualms whatever about punishing people for no good reason at all.

You would be a much freer person if you finally GET that, Neo.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 03:09 pm
@neologist,
There is no dealing with it, neo, in the advanced stage Apisa has reached.

The story is simple-minded and that's all there is to it. The very idea that it is not simple-minded cannot be even contemplated. The assertion stands to ensure that it never will be contemplated and most assuredly not by anyone who has "really looked" at it and is, by internal logic, not simple-minded.

Whether or not it has been "really looked" at is neither here nor there. It is a fact that it has been "really looked" at as I explained a little while ago.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 03:15 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
. . . You would be a much freer person if you finally GET that, Neo.
"The truth will set you free", Frank. (John 8:32) The truth is there are two colossal forces contending in the universe. To be free from one is to fall prey to the other.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 03:19 pm
@neologist,
Unfortunately for all of us, there are more than just of couple of colossal forces in our lives.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 03:42 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

There is no dealing with it, neo, in the advanced stage Apisa has reached.

The story is simple-minded and that's all there is to it. The very idea that it is not simple-minded cannot be even contemplated. The assertion stands to ensure that it never will be contemplated and most assuredly not by anyone who has "really looked" at it and is, by internal logic, not simple-minded.

Whether or not it has been "really looked" at is neither here nor there. It is a fact that it has been "really looked" at as I explained a little while ago.


Oh, Spendius...you ought not to try so hard.

Really...it almost always results counter productively...as it has here.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 03:44 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
. . . You would be a much freer person if you finally GET that, Neo.
"The truth will set you free", Frank. (John 8:32) The truth is there are two colossal forces contending in the universe. To be free from one is to fall prey to the other.


My guess is you do not know that there are two colossal forces contending in the universe, Neo...especially the way you seem to be suggesting.

If you stop allowing your god to keep you captive...you will be freer. It is your choice.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 05:14 pm
@neologist,
You see neo. My post is counter-productive and you're a captive.

It's incurable.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 06:33 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

You see neo. My post is counter-productive and you're a captive.

It's incurable.


Now you got it! Wink
0 Replies
 
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 09:34 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
Noted. Yet I, for one, have no idea what these are. Could you explain?

What do you mean by 'these': the understanding of the Church, or my understanding about life and death? ... And what about your understanding on the issue?
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 09:38 pm
@Frank Apisa,
How did you come to know that 'neologist wrote:' is 'your quote'?
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Oct, 2013 12:19 am
@Herald,
Herald wrote:
How did you come to know that 'neologist wrote:' is 'your quote'?
Mainly because Frank does not hold that opinion. I do.
0 Replies
 
 

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