Define God

Cicerone Imposter wrote in posts over the last 2 pages:

Quote:

1-neo and I go back many years - and I have the same discussions with my siblings after "all these years."
2- According to this god's law, any person can kill millions of people and still go to heaven.
3- Prove to us (from the bible) god's justice and love for humans?
4- If heaven is sin free, why can't god make earth sin free? God already knows who will sin and who will live a pristine life.
5- he doesn't give a damn. Disease, poverty, starvation, wars, natural disasters

1-But mate,you and Neo go back many years (you're 78 years old) but you're still asking basic questions, don't you understand his answers?
Let me have a try-
2- if a mass murderer truly honestly repents, they've at least got a chance of getting through the pearlies.
3- God sent his son to die for us, that's how much he loves the human race.
4- The earth is a special testing ground where we're given free will to sin or not. If he already knew who'd sin or not, he wouldn't have had to create the earth to find out!
5- Poverty, starvation,wars and some natural disasters are caused by human stupidity, not by God.
Jesus said Satan cripples people, so why blame God for illness and disease?

2 Replies

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Not really. He was asking about your inscrutable answer.

The 'inscrutable answer' is after the question, and not before. There is no way to ask a priori about the answer to your own question.
Yet, I can give you some answer but there is no guaratee that you will like it.
Let's make a simple validation test of the general claims of the church.
1. Our Soul is immortal.
2. The Soul exists after our death.
3. The Soul will go straight into Hell (without asking questions) if we do this and this during our lifetime.
4. The Soul will go into Heaven if we give all of our money to the church board while still alive, etc.
Validation Test:
If the Soul exists after death it should be one of these:
Case 1: the Soul is material (some vibration string or whatever).
In this case it should be able to be detected by physical tools and it should exist in some material space (... & time eventually, notwithstanding the immortality) -> Nothing of the kind has been detected so far by any science (medical science, astrobiology, etc.)
Case 2: the Soul is immaterial.
- It exists somehow in any immaterial hyperspace and we cannot detect it. If this hyperspace is immaterial the temperature is irrelevant to it, hence it doesn't matter whether the surrounding material world is Hell (boiling lava) or Heaven (parradise with rivers and singing birds) -> hence Heaven and Hell make no sense to this immaterial world. (Contradiction No.1)
- If the Soul cannot die it cannot be borne as well, hence the birth and death of the soul is irrelevant to our personal birth and death, hence it doesn't matter what we are doing during our lifetime (if we follow the classical interpretations and understanding of the church) (Contradiction No.2)
- If the Soul cannot die but could only be borne, very soon the space will be jammed with overflow of ethernal souls (incl. from other intelligent life forms as well). Where is all this ... and how can we detect it? (Contradiction No.3)
-> hence the interpretation of the events around 0 A.D. has nothing to do with the marketing developments of the church on the TV ... and in the distributed 'church' books, and the religious presentations on the stadiums, etc.

1 Reply

@Herald,

It's difficult for me to interpret your erudite exegesis. If you are talking about soul as the word appears in the Bible, recall that animals as well as humans are referred to as 'souls' not as 'having souls'. Souls die. (Ezekiel 18:20) This fact is consistent with God's warning to Adam and Eve that eating of the tree would have the consequence of death, nothing more. No mention of eternal barbecue. Solomon repeated this truth in Ecclesiastes 9:5. "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

Is this what you are saying?

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

....4- The earth is a special testing ground where we're given free will to sin or not. If he already knew who'd sin or not, he wouldn't have had to create the earth to find out . . .

For CI's benefit as well as the interest of truth. The Bible explicitly states that tests do not originate with God " When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone." (James 1:13)
Tests are the domain of Satan. (Job 2:4)
And the earth was created for mankind (Psalm 115:16)

1 Reply

@neologist,

In other words, satan will still be around when all go to heaven. What a deal!

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

I'm quite certain neither you nor I will go to heaven. We were created to live on earth with our loved ones. Satan, on the other hand, will be no more.

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Neologist said:

Quote:

The Bible explicitly states that tests do not originate with God " When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone." (James 1:13)
Tests are the domain of Satan. (Job 2:4)
And the earth was created for mankind (Psalm 115:16)

Yes Satan is serving a purpose because God is indirectly using him to test people-
"Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth" (Revelation 10:7/8)

As for the earth being created for mankind, yes it's just a temporary testing ground and we shouldn't get too attached to it-
"Don't love the world or the things in it,otherwise the love of God is not in you" (1 John 2:15-17)
"Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth" (Col 3:2)
"For we look at things unseen rather than the seen,for the seen are temporary, but the unseen are eternal" (2 Cor 4:18)

Bear Grylls is a good example of that "stare at things unseen"-
"My Christian faith has been such a backbone through so many difficult times"-Bear Grylls

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub4/b-grrylls.gif

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

BTW, You've never answered the question of what those who go to heaven will do there.

Also, Bear Grylls may create a good show, but don't try any of his stunts without a film crew on hand, proficient in first aid and rescue techniques. The survival folks I work with at gun shows all know he's a hack.

0 Replies

Neologist said:

Quote:

BTW, You've never answered the question of what those who go to heaven will do there

Nobody knows exactly what form heaven takes, or where it is.
For example Jesus said people there will be "like angels" (Matt 22:30) which implies we become spiritual life-forms, and Paul said-
"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable...it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.. flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 15:42-50)
All we know is that heaven will be "Paradise" (Jesus's word for it in Luke 23:43), so it sounds a nice place whatever and wherever it is.. Smile

PS- Grylls munches on spiders, scorpions, snakes, parachutes out of planes and jumps down waterfalls etc, there's nothing fake about that!
He even insists on bits being left in the shows where he throws up after eating something nasty, gets half-blinded by wasp stings (below), and admits a desert island has got him beat, so obviously he's not afraid to show he's not a superman.
The directors and producers are to blame for how the show is put together in the cutting room, not him, and he's had rows with them.. Smile

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/grylls-bee3.gif~original

2 Replies

@Romeo Fabulini,

I wrote:

BTW, You've never answered the question of what those who go to heaven will do there

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Nobody knows exactly what form heaven takes, or where it is.
For example Jesus said people there will be "like angels" (Matt 22:30) which implies we become spiritual life-forms, and Paul said-
"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable...it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.. flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 15:42-50)
All we know is that heaven will be "Paradise" (Jesus's word for it in Luke 23:43), so it sounds a nice place whatever and wherever it is..

We'll leave the Bear for another thread. You are no doubt right about the show producers.

So, I suppose you didn't read Revelation 5:10 where the ones chosen for heaven rule as kings over the earth. Hmm. If you don't know this, perhaps heaven is not your destination. It's a good thing the alternative is not the infernal barbecue, for you still have the possibility of being one of the millions living on a peaceful earth.

1 Reply

@neologist,

If heaven is a completely different place where man cannot imagine, it seems illogical to try to "get there." From any perspective, it seems heaven would be the most boring place to live "forever." How many lifetimes does man need?
Will people age in heaven? Will there be death? Will there be natural disasters and climate change? Will satan be restricted from heaven? Will they have "free will?" Will they have earthly temptations? Will heaven be "sinless?"

2 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

How does a chap get to your advanced age and still be thinking that claptrap means anything? It's infantile.

Heaven is a state of rest in which a person abides for as long as any shred of their memory still exists somewhere. They fade away. Hence graveyards and statues and memorial libraries and old photographs and other memorabilia and what not. Maybe researching ancestors is similar but I suspect looking for blue blood is the main motive.

It is possible to imagine that the growth of non-traditional names is partly due to a "**** the ancestors" attitude which is a characteristic of the American Dream from first to last. And of which I soundly approve.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

If heaven is a completely different place where man cannot imagine, it seems illogical to try to "get there." From any perspective, it seems heaven would be the most boring place to live "forever." How many lifetimes does man need?
Will people age in heaven? Will there be death? Will there be natural disasters and climate change? Will satan be restricted from heaven? Will they have "free will?" Will they have earthly temptations? Will heaven be "sinless?"

Id be happy to stay here with my family

1 Reply

@neologist,

But think what you would all look like, neo, in 300 years. And if you looked like you do now you would not be allowed to have a family due to the limited standing room.

1 Reply

@spendius,

It sounds like the argument I have heard before; when you continue multiplying and nobody croaks out, pretty soon the earth will become desperately overcrowded. Because, you say, God told Adam and Eve to fill the earth.

OK, well, suppose you are in a restaurant and tell the waiter to fill your coffee, would you expect him to continue pouring until it became necessary to mop the floor? I don't know what God has in mind for us when the earth becomes comfortably full; but I'd like to be around to find out.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

If god knew all that before he "allowed" (since he knew beforehand that they would) adam and eve to sin, why didn't he create the same condition for earth?

Logic 101 is missing.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

If god knew all that before he "allowed" (since he knew beforehand that they would) adam and eve to sin, why didn't he create the same condition for earth?

Logic 101 is missing.

No, CI. I believe it's your memory slipping. Adam and Eve, even the one we call Satan, all have or had free will. Their sin was neither foreknown nor predetermined. Same with us.

2 Replies

Neologist wrote:

Quote:

So, I suppose you didn't read Revelation 5:10 where the ones chosen for heaven rule as kings over the earth

You Jehovahs Witnesses vanity-cultists might fancy the idea of ruling people but I certainly don't want to rule over anybody!
Anyway Jesus said:- "In my fathers house are many mansions, I'm going on ahead to get them ready for you, then i'll come back to take you there with me" (John 14:2-6)
But if you want to stay on the clapped-out old earth I'm sure he'll let you.. Smile

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
If god knew all that before he "allowed" (since he knew beforehand that they would) adam and eve to sin, why didn't he create the same condition for earth?

Logic 101 is missing.
No, CI. I believe it's your memory slipping. Adam and Eve, even the one we call Satan, all have or had free will. Their sin was neither foreknown nor predetermined. Same with us.

Their "sin" was to have a god like they had. The whole thing was a set-up...a sting.

If you could get yourself to see that, Neo...you would finally actually be free.

2 Replies

@Romeo Fabulini,

How long does it take for god to prepare "father's house?" He created heaven and earth in six days! Something is drastically wrong here.

1 Reply

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