Define God

@neologist,

I like you too, neo, but you're missing the whole point of my opinions. God doesn't have influence on human love, wisdom, and justice. Those are all man-made/created ideas that may be taught, but cannot be influenced. That's the reason why some killers/rapists/monsters come from "good families."

It's based on each individual's perception regardless of culture, race, ethnicity, or family. Look at what scientists have created in the nuclear bombs that kills tens of thousands with one unit. Do they have wisdom and love? How about justice towards all humanity?

There are just too many conflicts of how one interprets those three nouns. It's not only about what Jesus taught.

Many religious folks go to war and kill other humans. Same question; why?

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This should answer a few assorted questions-
Basically the earth was created by God as a TOUGH TESTING GROUND, he laid down the rules through Jesus and is now sitting back taking notes on how we do, so that he can judge whether our souls are worth saving.

It's no picnic-
"All creation groans in pain from the beginning til now" (Rom 8:22)

And it sorts the men from the boys:-
"We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22)

Jesus welcomes anybody into his squad:-
"Whoever comes to me I'll never turn away" (John 6:37)

And he'll lead by example:-
"Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:27)

The C.O. shows no favouritism:-
"God didn't spare his own son" (Rom 8:32)

So if he can hack it so can we:-
"We share in Jesus's sufferings in order to share in his glory" (Rom 8:17)

Others have stayed the course-
"I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith" (2 Tim 4:7)

Then if we qualify we win the 'Gold Beret'-
"Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life.." (James 1:12)

Waddya say Bob?
"Take the pain! TAKE THE PAIN!"

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/Barnes.jpg

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@Romeo Fabulini,

You wrote,

Quote:

"We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22)

How can that be when they die before or after birth? How about those babies born with deformities? Where's the justice?

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Cicerone wrote:

Quote:

How can that be when they die before or after birth? How about those babies born with deformities? Where's the justice?

Remember, Satan stalks the earth-"The devil prowls round like a roaring lion" (1 Pet 5:8 ) trying to mess things up.
Jesus said:-"He was a murderer from the beginning" (John 8:44)
As for babies who die, I'm sure God cuts them a lot of slack and doesn't forget them-
Jesus said- "God won't forget the death of a single sparrow...you're worth more than many sparrows.." (Matt 10:29-31)

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@cicerone imposter,

Like I said, CI. I'm not talking perversions.
What is your love like?

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@neologist,

I love my wife and two sons. I don't "love" many, but have affectionate feelings for them.

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@cicerone imposter,

The Greeks had several words we translate as love:
Storge =parental love
Philos = brotherly love
Eros = erotic love
Agape = principled love

When I refer to God's love for us, I am speaking of agape. I can tell from your posts, you have agape love for your fellow man. It is the quintessential love. It is the love God has in the superlative. There is an explanation for why it has been corrupted so greatly in mankind; but that is not the fault of God.

You and I experience failings in our quality of love from time to time, but God never does. Keep that in mind while I take today's mail to the Post Office.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Could it be explained by the qualities He has engraved in us? Love, Wisdom, Justice?

Why should my understanding of the world explain these (invalid) questions?
1. You don't have serious evidences that Love, Wisdom & Justice are prevailing our life. This is some optimal behaviour as part of a survival strategy, but we are far from that case.
2. You don't even have a definition of Justice: the things that one perceives as justice may be criminal offense first degree in other understanding of the world.
3. Love, Wisdom & Justice are not even the 'Word of God' (whatever this Word might be). How will you comment this one, for example: 'Do not judge, for you too will be judged' (Matthew 7:1)
4. You cannot present any evidences that Love, Wisdom & Justice are set up a priori into the DNA ... and that they are set up there at all.

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@Herald,

You are correct. We as an animal species are inbred with wars, killings, rape, stealing, and violence. No amount of nice sounding rules of behavior can succeed in changing our animal behavior. Wars are started by religious heads of state, and its citizens do not have a choice in whether they are required to serve in their military or not (although we now have a voluntary military). Most other countries do not have that choice.

Religion can be comforting for some, but it requires ignoring logic, common sense, and science.

Good luck to y'all.

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Cicerone Imp said:

Quote:

Religion can be comforting for some, but it requires ignoring logic, common sense, and science.

Jesus arrived, said "God sent me to tell you things", then did miracles to prove he had God's power working through him.
So anybody who says "Nah not interested in him" isn't showing much common sense at all.. Wink

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@Herald,

neologist wrote:

Could it be explained by the qualities He has engraved in us? Love, Wisdom, Justice?

Herald wrote:

Why should my understanding of the world explain these (invalid) questions?
1. You don't have serious evidences that Love, Wisdom & Justice are prevailing our life. This is some optimal behaviour as part of a survival strategy, but we are far from that case.

I did not say they prevail, just that they exist.

Herald wrote:

2. You don't even have a definition of Justice: the things that one perceives as justice may be criminal offense first degree in other understanding of the world.

You confuse 'justice' with 'legal'. You seem to be a reasonable person. What is your sense of justice? Fairness? That's probably close.

Herald wrote:

3. Love, Wisdom & Justice are not even the 'Word of God' (whatever this Word might be). How will you comment this one, for example: 'Do not judge, for you too will be judged' (Matthew 7:1)

So? Our sense of justice is not equivalent to God's. Have I said it was?

Herald wrote:

4. You cannot present any evidences that Love, Wisdom & Justice are set up a priori into the DNA ... and that they are set up there at all.

Talk about not being on the same page, we are not even in the same library here.

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@neologist,

You wrote,

Quote:

I did not say they prevail, just that they exist.

But, as I have pointed out, the three nouns that you seem to advocate are perceived differently by all individuals. There are contradictions inherent in those nouns based on one's culture, circumstances, and location of place and time.

Why does a parent kill their children and themselves? "Love" can be interpreted in many ways.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Why does a parent kill their children and themselves? "Love" can be interpreted in many ways.

I was not talking about the perversions of love that we see all too often. I am talking about your concept of love, the empathy I know you have for others.

That is the love we have been given, and which God has to a superlative degree. The degradation of this trait is not the fault of God.

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@neologist,

You may not want to talk about the "perversions," but they are part and parcel of that word based on human reality. You can't pick and choose how to define words to your own liking. We're talking about the human animal with all it's realities and perceptions.

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JW's would rather let their kids die than have a blood transfusion, and they also don't let their kids have birthdays or Christmas, so I don't see much "love" there!
Sounds like very bad parenting to me.. Wink

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Good example. Mr. Green

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@Romeo Fabulini,

This from a guy who tells us God will consign sinners to Satan's Barbecue

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Could it be explained by the qualities He has engraved in us? Love, Wisdom, Justice?

neologist wrote:

I did not say they prevail, just that they exist.

'Engraved' does not suppose simple existence. It is supposed to mean 'deeply rooted into the nature' ... in this case of humans.

neologist wrote:

What is your sense of justice? Fairness? That's probably close.

I don't deal with meting out justice. It is very relative, and taking into consideration that we are continuously mislead, disinformed, manipulated and horseshoed with whatnot ... not to mention the concealed and misinterpreted data and information of any kind that we are showered with every day, these 'measures' with delivering justice become very suspicious and compromised. Often the so called victims are much more malicious, evil-minded and vindictive than the offenders. There are people that simply cannot stop revenging ... no matter how much the revenge outperforms the offense.

neologist wrote:

Talk about not being on the same page, we are not even in the same library here.

I hope we are at least on one and the same planet.

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@Herald,

District Attorneys in many communities lie and cheat to win cases in court to find defendants guilty of crimes they never committed.

That's a good case in point about the trustworthiness of justice in this country.

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@cicerone imposter,

Herald wrote:

I don't deal with meting out justice. It is very relative, and taking into consideration that we are continuously mislead, disinformed, manipulated and horseshoed with whatnot ... not to mention the concealed and misinterpreted data and information of any kind that we are showered with every day, these 'measures' with delivering justice become very suspicious and compromised. Often the so called victims are much more malicious, evil-minded and vindictive than the offenders. There are people that simply cannot stop revenging ... no matter how much the revenge outperforms the offense.

cicerone imposter,responding to Herald wrote:

District Attorneys in many communities lie and cheat to win cases in court to find defendants guilty of crimes they never committed.

That's a good case in point about the trustworthiness of justice in this country.

All these observations, while true, are as straw men to the assertion that humans (the three of us, at least) have some idea of true justice. True justice, which happens to be based on empathic love for others, is the quality to which I refer. If God created us with this quality, then surely he must himself possess it to a superlative degree.

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