Define God

They used to cost a nickle.

Not when they ask for a donation ;-)

You must be really old. In my day, they cost twice as much.

Nothing's free but us and we will be held accountable for our behavior. We have obedient brothers and rebellious brothers. To justify bad behavior by claiming free will isn't really free is stretching the truth. Although God knows "what happens next", doesn't mean you didn't choose your mistakes. God created all from Him. God knew some (most) would stray. You chose weather to stay or stray. All life is based on the same consept of only the strong serviving. Religious believers that claim "all are rebelious but will be forgiven as long as you believe the impossible (do what ever you want because it's not your fault because a guy dissapered out of his tomb, so he must have rose from the dead ) blah blah blah" have made a mockery of God. More "atheism" comes from that false story than any other hard to believe ancient story. It's not about faith in wonders. We didn't see what happend. We don't know what happened.

I know I jumped around a lot in this post. All I'm saying is... shut up and look. It's all common sence. Don't believe everything you hear. Do what you feel is right, even if it means going out of your way. It's your choice. It's a gift. Of course God knows what you will choose. That doesn't mean the choice (gift) isn't yours.

I think you are confounding awareness of a choice having to be made with the idea that such choice is taken freely or that you could do otherwise to which there isn't any conclusive proof right now quite the contrary...the argument is actually quite simple, if you believe in cause and effect, which mostly you do as any normal human being, then the argument for free will cannot be reconciled with it, because if there are causes beyond you that lead to choose the way you did, and thus that were not initiated by you, that would imply a contradiction in terms when you say those causes are from your own free will...you certainly cannot make yourself up in order to choose freely what you want without being yourself in the first place...but even if you were the first being in the universe and one not caused by anything just by having an intrinsic nature and having a causal mechanic you would still would not be able to do otherwise...the idea of doing otherwise is always a retrospective thought experiment...so hammering words like choice or free will ad nausea wont settle the matter down per se...

So, are you saying that free will exists only in a state of chaos?
That is the most succinct argument I have heard so far.

It does apply, albeit only to a point

I think there are differences on the level of chaos depending upon where one lives. There are also people who have preferences on how much chaos they are willing to accept - under certain circumstances and ability at choices.

I constantly find it funny that so many people talk about Truth everyday specially preachers and in the end of it they don't have the faintest clue what truth imply...no, nor you nor anyone/anything else can't do otherwise...imagine yourself jumping out of time space and taking a look at the set of all sets, whatever is true in such set, is true...again, say if "God" is such set then whatever is true is true...no freaking otherwise left to be done to no one !

I wasn't talking about visits from my grandchildren. . .

But now that you mention it . . .

I understand epistemology as well as any other yokel. Standards of truth differ with discipline.

But if I loan you $5, don't try to weasel out.

My wife and her sister sponsor our annual New Year's Day feast for family and friends at our home. I now try to be absent from this event, because too many screaming children running around the house banging doors and doing everything that's too loud, noisy, and children's happiness and enjoyment!

This year, I was in Cuba.

You see I am not debating epistemology but ontology...I don't care what the truth is or if I will ever have access to it...I am just saying that throughout all space time the entire set of existence, all things, are subjected to being whatever they are...truth even if not knowable is the coinage referring to the actual state of affairs of all things that existed exist or will exist ! There is no otherwise out of that...

...the fact that I may be the causal nexus, the effective cause to be more precise here, of any event, doesn't mean that the "choice" is my responsibility alone...so what I am instead is a precursor in a chain of events, that timelessly speaking are true, and from which I am a necessary part...my said "choosing" was fixed by Universal Logos...by the way, that's what UNITY entails !!!

PS - One of these days I will end up signing these forums with :
...drop blame blame is lame !

Ontology has many branches. Which tree is yours?

I need to know which one to bark up.

If not your responsibility, how are you the effective cause?

The set of all sets, or the nature of Being, and "branches" are a figure of speech, ontology is always about One thing and one thing alone, not many...pluri taxonomy it is a useful but ultimately false coinage...when debating being we must debate in general not the "ecosystem" particularity's !

I am a link in the chain I am not the origin or the seed "the logos" or the "reason" accounting for such action...

more:

Even Omniscient awareness, one fully justifying and containing the action or the event X although responsible is not free but rather NECESSARY ! Timely speaking "God" is the NECESSARY reason of all things ! Timelessly he is all things...Necessary Unity is the chain or the Logos of God !

In the grand scheme of cause and effect, that appears to be correct. Yet, free will can exist in such a chain.

(check above once more I ad some stuff)

..I knew it...there it comes soft determinism down the pipe...soft determinism equates to juggling with words...no otherwise there...otherwise it is a thought experiment fed by lack of universal knowledge...fed by me not knowing what choice I will eventually take...the very usage of "mine" is outrageous...its borrowed !

Be careful how you use the word 'omniscient', as it implies a restriction on the power of God.