Define God

That's right. And it's not.

How much more simple could it be?

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neologist wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
From Brandon's New World Dictionary:

I am an atheist, but to me, the word God denotes an all-powerful being, personally responsible for the creation of the universe, and capable of speaking to any person either within that person's mind, or aloud using sound, should he choose to.
Thanks, Brandon. Now that you have given us a definition, would you care to elaborate on why you do not believe?

Not unless you want to argue for the next couple of hundred posts. I've been through this before with believers lots and lots of times, many of them quite intelligent and articulate.

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Brandon9000 wrote:

neologist wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
From Brandon's New World Dictionary:

I am an atheist, but to me, the word God denotes an all-powerful being, personally responsible for the creation of the universe, and capable of speaking to any person either within that person's mind, or aloud using sound, should he choose to.
Thanks, Brandon. Now that you have given us a definition, would you care to elaborate on why you do not believe?

Not unless you want to argue for the next couple of hundred posts. I've been through this before with believers lots and lots of times, many of them quite intelligent and articulate.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong. But I would like to know if your objections might require you to refine your definition.

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neologist wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
neologist wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
From Brandon's New World Dictionary:

I am an atheist, but to me, the word God denotes an all-powerful being, personally responsible for the creation of the universe, and capable of speaking to any person either within that person's mind, or aloud using sound, should he choose to.
Thanks, Brandon. Now that you have given us a definition, would you care to elaborate on why you do not believe?

Not unless you want to argue for the next couple of hundred posts. I've been through this before with believers lots and lots of times, many of them quite intelligent and articulate.
I'm not trying to prove you wrong. But I would like to know if your objections might require you to refine your definition.

The fact is, though, that when I stated my reasons, you would question my reasons, then I would defend them, and we would be off. I have been through it hundreds of times, some of them at great length.

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I cannot speak for brandon, but I do not need a reason to 'disbelieve' anything. There is simply enough evidence to formulate a belief or there is not. My standard of evidence is higher than most, and the case for an all powerful god simply falls short.

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'Belief' is not something I've ever equated with formulation...

Theories, yes. But beliefs--either you believe or you don't. And no one can borrow beliefs, so therefore no one should ever be expected to justify them, I don't think.

At least I don't ask anyone to because I don't think it is possible to prove conviction. It's just there.

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queen annie wrote:

'Belief' is not something I've ever equated with formulation...

Theories, yes. But beliefs--either you believe or you don't. And no one can borrow beliefs, so therefore no one should ever be expected to justify them, I don't think.

At least I don't ask anyone to because I don't think it is possible to prove conviction. It's just there.

The proposition that a conscious entity deliberately created the universe and can interact with it in any way he sees fit is either true or false, but not both, and not neither. As far as matters of fact go, you can believe any old thing you want, but if you want to be correct, you need to use evidence and logic. If you just go around believe what you like, you are going to be wrong about a lot of things.

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Brandon,

I'd like to ask you a question if I may. I have a very hard time understanding why so many want evidence of God. I believe in God on faith and don't require proof, so it is hard for me to understand those wanting proof.

Can you try to explain to me what it really is in you that desires this proof? That is, if you are one that does require proof. You don't have to answer if you don't want to. I'm not trying to pry. I am just trying to understand something I have yet been able to understand.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Brandon,

I'd like to ask you a question if I may. I have a very hard time understanding why so many want evidence of God. I believe in God on faith and don't require proof, so it is hard for me to understand those wanting proof.

Can you try to explain to me what it really is in you that desires this proof? That is, if you are one that does require proof. You don't have to answer if you don't want to. I'm not trying to pry. I am just trying to understand something I have yet been able to understand.

My answer is contained in my previous post and I believe it is crystal clear. If you want to reach a correct answer regarding something like the origins and structure of the universe, or most other matters of fact, you need to have evidence and use logic. If you do not, you will simply be incorrect a lot. Just as one is unlikely to determine the structure of an atom correctly without using evidence and logic, you are unlikely to determine the structure of the universe correctly without them. Any experimental test of determining matters of fact by believing without using evidence and logic will show that it doesn't work except randomly.

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Brandon,

Thank you for answering. So, is it a matter of you just don't want to be wrong (in the case of believing by faith)? That may be oversimplifying. Bear with me, please?

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Actually folks, I'm with Brandon and Dok on this in that some standards of evidence and proof are required.

I am also aware that the best we could hope to find in the way of proof may be circumstantial evidence. That is because we lack the ability to directly observe things which precede us in time and make inferences only by the effects we can measure.

But I see nothing wrong with examining and refining the premises upon which we base our arguments.

That being said, I wonder if someone would be willing to define terms such as 'all powerful', for example.

Or does the term 'all knowing' require that there is nothing that God can not know?

For example:

as Brandon9000 wrote:

The proposition that a conscious entity deliberately created the universe and can interact with it in any way he sees fit is either true or false, but not both, and not neither. . .

If true, does this allow that God has free will?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Brandon,

Thank you for answering. So, is it a matter of you just don't want to be wrong (in the case of believing by faith)? That may be oversimplifying. Bear with me, please?

Essentially. Once God has been define, His existence is either true or false. Determining matters of fact without evidence and logic can be shown in any number of experiments not to work except by coincidence.

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Brandon,

Ok. I can understand that. But, since belief in God is based on faith and not proof, is there anyway you (or others) can find a way to reconcile this?

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neologist wrote:

....For example:

as Brandon9000 wrote:
The proposition that a conscious entity deliberately created the universe and can interact with it in any way he sees fit is either true or false, but not both, and not neither. . .
If true, does this allow that God has free will?

The statement is completely unrelated to the issue of God having free will. Either the universe was a deliberately created by a conscious entity or it wasn't.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Brandon,

Ok. I can understand that. But, since belief in God is based on faith and not proof, is there anyway you (or others) can find a way to reconcile this?

A person who believes specific propositions, such the existence of God, without using evidence and logic will be wrong a lot. That technique doesn't produce correct results except by chance.

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Brandon,

I do understand what you are saying and I appreciate so much you taking the time to answer my questions.

Ok, so the fact that you can't prove God's existence and therefore do not want to be in the wrong by believing by faith, is more a matter of ego? That probably isn't the exact word I am looking for so I hope you can just get my meaning from it.

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Brandon9000 wrote:

neologist wrote:

....For example:

as Brandon9000 wrote:
The proposition that a conscious entity deliberately created the universe and can interact with it in any way he sees fit is either true or false, but not both, and not neither. . .
If true, does this allow that God has free will?

The statement is completely unrelated to the issue of God having free will. Either the universe was a deliberately created by a conscious entity or it wasn't.

Explain the dichotomy between 'deliberate' and 'free will'.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Brandon,

I do understand what you are saying and I appreciate so much you taking the time to answer my questions.

Ok, so the fact that you can't prove God's existence and therefore do not want to be in the wrong by believing by faith, is more a matter of ego? That probably isn't the exact word I am looking for so I hope you can just get my meaning from it.

I don't require absolute proof, but I do require at least enough evidence to strongly suggest the existence of God. It has nothing whatever to do with ego in any sense I understand it. Believing matters of fact without evidence just doesn't produce correct results except by luck.

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neologist wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
neologist wrote:

....For example:

as Brandon9000 wrote:
The proposition that a conscious entity deliberately created the universe and can interact with it in any way he sees fit is either true or false, but not both, and not neither. . .
If true, does this allow that God has free will?

The statement is completely unrelated to the issue of God having free will. Either the universe was a deliberately created by a conscious entity or it wasn't.
Explain the dichotomy between 'deliberate' and 'free will'.

It doesn't matter. Once God is defined, either there is God or there isn't. Saying that God exists is a statement about the universe. In matters of fact evidence and logic are the only reliable way to determine what is true.

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Brandon,

I didn't think ego was the right word. Thank you for answering my questions. I do appreciate it.

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