New US textbook aims to teach Bible as knowledge

If I hear the pledge of allegiance, I stand aside silently and politely, just as when I attend a religious ceremony and Christians are praying.

But I don't find prayer offensive, and being excluded is not the reason I find the pledge of allegiance offensive. What I find offensive is the idea of a state making its citizens worship itself. Maybe I disagree that the United States are one and indivisible. Maybe I disagree it has freedom and justice for all. And even if I did, I wouldn't want to be peer-pressured to join a herd of sheep in collectively bloking that this is the case.

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Thomas- I think that you have a point. I had never really thought about it before. Interesting, the things that we take for granted.

Does anyone know if any other countries have anything similar to the pledge?

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Thomas,

I don't find stating the pledge of allegiance as worshiping the state. I believe in my country. I respect my country. I do not worship my country.

Doesn't Germany have a national anthem? Wouldn't this be along the same lines? It's just showing respect for your country.

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Thomas,

If one becomes a citizen of Germany do they have to take some kind of oath? Don't most countries have an oath for those changing citizenships?

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Phoenix -- Nazi Germany and Communist East Germany had pledges similar to yours, but our constitutional monarchy and our two democracies did not. Maybe that's the root of my gut-level aversion to those things. I'm pretty sure I heard a pledge of allegience as an exchange student in France; if my foggy memory serves, it was uncontroversial.

MA -- We do have a national anthem. I don't sing it either. No state government that wants to be reelected would make schoolchildren sing it in the morning.

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Thanx for the info Thomas. I appreciate you answering.

Funny, never really thought about this kind of thing until Phoenix brought it up. I think it's pretty interesting.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Thomas,

If one becomes a citizen of Germany do they have to take some kind of oath? Don't most countries have an oath for those changing citizenships?

Momma- I think that it is perfectly appropriate for a naturalized citizen to take an oath of loyalty to her adopted country, at the time of the granting of the citizenship. That is not the same as standing and saying a pledge at every cockamamie local meeting.

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Ok, so I take it these people were not US citizens but were citizens of your community?

And if they were US citizens, why do you think they might object?

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No, you just get your papers in Germany. (The conservatives have "asked" that an oath on the constitution should be esteblished.)

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Thanx Walter. Ok, is there anything on the papers that state what it means to be a citizen of Germany?

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Momma Angel wrote:

If one becomes a citizen of Germany do they have to take some kind of oath? Don't most countries have an oath for those changing citizenships?

My former piano teacher, who hails from Mocow, Russia, became a German about 10 years ago. The way she told the story, she had to make a statutory declaration, in writing, that she had renounced her Russian citizenship and that she would follow the laws and the constitution of the Federal Republic of Germany. These declaration are usually pre-printed and just signed by the person who wishes to make them. I would be surprised if she had had to raise one hand and lay the other on the constitution at any point in the process.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Ok, so I take it these people were not US citizens but were citizens of your community?

And if they were US citizens, why do you think they might object?

I never said that the US citizens would object. The people to which I am referring are "snowbirds", who have their main home in a foreign country, have second homes, and live in the community for a few months during the year to get out of the cold.

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Thomas wrote:

I would be surprised if she had had to raise one hand and lay the other on the constitution at any point in the process.

From the beginning of the Federal republic of G onwards until now there never has been an oath when you get the citizenship.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Thomas wrote:
I would be surprised if she had had to raise one hand and lay the other on the constitution at any point in the process.

From the beginning of the Federal republic of G onwards until now there never has been an oath when you get the citizenship.

Yes, that's what I would have expected.

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Thomas wrote:

Setanta wrote:
I could not agree less. Were it a part of a course which included the scriptural canon of a great many other religions, or were it a part of a course which inluded a great many texts of a similar alleged antiquity, there would be little reason to object. It's presentation, however, as a "stand alone" document, by a very strong inference makes it out to be a more significant scriptural canon or ancient document.

Would you similarly object to an elective course in which students would devote most of their time to dramatic readings of Shakespeare's plays about England's royal family? Would it trouble you in any way that these dramas, considered as history books, are as shoddy as the bible?

Shakespeare is commonly a part of secondary education in the United States. It is also commonly a part of a course which considers far more examples of literature than just Shakespeare. The "historical plays" are rarely included, unless one considers Julius Caesar and MacBeth as forming a part of the "historical plays," a contention which would fly in the face of accepted tenets of English literature. It would not trouble me that the "historical plays" are Lancastrian and Tudor propaganda unless and until a course which presented only the historical plays were offered, and contended that they constituted an historical study. Keep in mind that the departure point of our debate is the contention of an individual in the originally quoted article to the effect that the bible be taught as truth. I have objected to this proposed course on two bases--the "thin end of the wedge" argument that is is an ill-concealed effort to promote christianity at the public expense, and the argument that a course which regards only the bible is a course which implicitly suggests a special status for a particular scriptural canon.

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Quote:

I have objected to this proposed course on two bases--the "thin end of the wedge" argument that is is an ill-concealed effort to promote christianity at the public expense, and the argument that a course which regards only the bible is a course which implicitly suggests a special status for a particular scriptural canon.

To your first point, I don't find paranoia to be a reasonable objection.

Your second I think is a valid concern. However, I could support such a course provided it include all historical evidence, all popular interpretations through history, a study of why certain scriptures were included while others were left out.

The Bible has had a profound impact on our society. It seems reasonable enough to consider teaching it in school, where kids may actually get a chance to see it objectively. There is no chance of that happening in a church setting.

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Phoenix,

I was trying to clarify whether the people from the other countries were US citizens or not. So, they were not U.S. citizens? I wish we could find out how they did feel about this.

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I would like someone to explain how the bible could be taught outside it's religious context. If you ignore it's religious content it reads like a poorly written fairy tale. I have to wonder what the purpose a course such as this would serve. If not to further and foster religion. This is a transparent attempt by the evangelicals to sell their product.

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I just don't get it. There are those that don't want the Bible taught as a religious text and then they are given that option. And what? You're not buying it? You have to add some covert motive to it?

Maybe to you it reads like a poorly written fairy tale. Have you ever read the Book of Psalms? There are some very beautiful verses there. Quite poetic in fact.

I'm beginning to think, au1929, you don't want the Bible taught period. People are being given a choice and you don't seem to want them to have this particular choice?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Phoenix,

I was trying to clarify whether the people from the other countries were US citizens or not. So, they were not U.S. citizens? I wish we could find out how they did feel about this.

No, they are not U.S. citizens, and live most of the time in their home country. Oh, wait a minute. I am friendly with one neighbor who is from France, and very outspoken. I am going to be at a dinner with him next week, and I will bring up the subject. I don't think that his response will be typical, though.

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New US textbook aims to teach Bible as knowledge

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